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Old 10-11-2012, 04:21 PM   #1
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


I'm in planning stages of my 2 storey renovation. I presently have a bungalow 44' x 26' on 10" block foundation built in 1967.
The front of the house is brick veneer in front of a 2x4 wall. Three remaining sides are aluminum siding over 2x4 walls.

The plan is to keep the foundation, main level floor and floor joists and take down the rest of the house. Of coarse my kids told me not to use straw or wood so I'm stuck using bricks. (something about some wolf dude they said).

I will need to cut back the floor joists for the brick ledge and then cut the main level floor boards back about a foot so I can have access from the top to lag bolt the new sill plate to the top of the block foundation wall. Currently, I don't see any bolts holding the house walls in place but I'm sure for the new construction I will need them. I was under the impression the top coarse was solid block. I noticed today when fixing my dryer vent that the tops of the blocks only are made filled a bit and below that they are hollow.

Before I saw that they were hollow, I thought that I could use some Hilti Kwik bolts for the sill plate but they can't be installed in hollow block obviously.

Its not like I can lift the new sill plate over threaded rods that are sticking up.

Has anybody faced this situation before?

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Old 10-13-2012, 09:12 AM   #2
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


I figured there was a ton of experience on this board and someone would have added brick to an existing sided house before. I guess its a somewhat rare situation. Most guys would just knock down the whole thing and start from scratch.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to try and anwer how to go about this myself.

Pugsy, why don't you core drill a 2-1/2" hole into the voids in the top coarse? You could also drill 2-1/2" holes in your new sill plate. You could then pour concrete thru the holes for your bent 1/2" anchor bolts and use the wood drops from the 2-1/2" holes in the sill plate to keep them centered and then use them as fillers. Use a piece of 1/4 x 3 hot rolled bar as a washer to bolt down the following day after the concrete has set.

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Old 10-13-2012, 09:25 AM   #3
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


will you have to build a temp wall under the floor system to hold the weight while you re work the whole thing? If the old sill plate is not in the way it seems like you need to add mortar to fill the voids first and then work out the framing while bolting it all down last with a possible epoxy bolt system. Pics help a lot
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:12 AM   #4
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


I don't want to lift more than an inch if possible. I have ducts and plumbing lines attached to the floor joists. Just want to cut back the joists and have a method to install the anchors through the new sill plate without lifting the sill plate up and over the bolts.

I'd prefer no anchors as is existing but that's not going to happen.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:28 PM   #5
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How tall is the foundation, is it a basement?
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #6
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


Yes, its 75% finished basement. About 80" high, 10" block. As mentioned the blocks are made closed. I seen a couple close to a window that were open blocks and filled.

I plan to live down there after the the framework is closed up. It got to be a quick job so the basement doesn't get any water damage.

All walls will be prefab with OSB already installed. This cutting back of the joists and new sill plate has to be figured out so I have no issues when it comes time to do the construction.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:18 PM   #7
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


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Yes, its 75% finished basement. About 80" high, 10" block. As mentioned the blocks are made closed. I seen a couple close to a window that were open blocks and filled.

I plan to live down there after the the framework is closed up. It got to be a quick job so the basement doesn't get any water damage.

All walls will be prefab with OSB already installed. This cutting back of the joists and new sill plate has to be figured out so I have no issues when it comes time to do the construction.
By closed blocks in the foundation do you mean solid cinder blocks? It seems that drilling in your bolts afterwards will be the way to do it with the least amount of maneuvering of the floor system, otherwise you want the bolts to stick up at least 2 1/2" from the top of the foundation for the sill plate so that means raising the floor at least 2".
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:57 PM   #8
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By closed blocks in the foundation do you mean solid cinder blocks? It seems that drilling in your bolts afterwards will be the way to do it with the least amount of maneuvering of the floor system, otherwise you want the bolts to stick up at least 2 1/2" from the top of the foundation for the sill plate so that means raising the floor at least 2".
I thought they were solid on the top coarse and I had planned to drill and use Kwik Bolt 3's.

When I was fixing the dryer vent, I saw that only the top of the blocks was closed about an inch only giving the appearance of a solid block.

That's why I'm thinking to do it the way I described, because I can only lift enough to get the insulation strip in and slip the new sill plate in. Lags got to go in after its in place.

The 2-1/2" wood filler would keep the sill plate from moving and a 1/4" thick plate and washer would squish it down tight.

Would a building inspector have a problem with this?
I guess I'll have to draw it out and get a hold of the city to see what they say.

Thanks,
Pugsy
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:16 PM   #9
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I thought they were solid on the top coarse and I had planned to drill and use Kwik Bolt 3's.

When I was fixing the dryer vent, I saw that only the top of the blocks was closed about an inch only giving the appearance of a solid block.

That's why I'm thinking to do it the way I described, because I can only lift enough to get the insulation strip in and slip the new sill plate in. Lags got to go in after its in place.

The 2-1/2" wood filler would keep the sill plate from moving and a 1/4" thick plate and washer would squish it down tight.

Would a building inspector have a problem with this?
I guess I'll have to draw it out and get a hold of the city to see what they say.

Thanks,
Pugsy

That is the best idea, have someone local looking at the detailed plans and foundation structural detail. Is the brick adding a lot more considerable weight to the structure?
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:36 PM   #10
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


The front already has brick but only one storey tall.

There is a 16" footing and 10" block on hard clay soil in our area.
I'm certain it will hold the brick no problem.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:21 PM   #11
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Cutting Back Floor Joists For Brick Ledge


I would probably plan on either mounting the treated sill plate in place first, and then drilling a smaller hole like 1.5" through the wood, and filling the entire block cell down to the footing with concrete/grout through a big funnel & a rebar. I'm sure it sounds difficult but you could mix the grout extremely wet, and use either a small stone (like pea stone) or even torpedo/concrete sand. The grout doesn't need to be strong, but it does need to be fairly wet so that it fills the entire core. Once the grout sets a little, you should be able to wiggle a 1/2" galvanized anchor bolt through the 1.5" hole.

You could also make a larger hole in the top of the solid top block and pour the cores completely full first, install the treated plate, and then epoxy your anchors into the cured grout afterwards. Personally, I think the epoxy method is far slower and expensive though, especially considering you'd have to wait at least a few days to allow the grout to cure, and it seems like your going to be in a bigger hurry than that.

On another not, I'd highly advise you to do your homework on the bottom flashing of the brick veneer in this scenario, as a case like this, with no sunken brickledge on the outside, has a long history of leaking to the interior and rotting out the sill plate, rim joists, and floor joists..............
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:59 PM   #12
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Filling before setting the sill plate makes sense rather than trying to pour cement through a small hole.

I will probably make my own flashing from 26 ga stainless. I can get it for a really great price from work.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:47 PM   #13
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Maybe I'm not picking up what you are putting down, but I believe I would just plug the cores with something, then fill the top two block or so with grout and put your anchors in that.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:31 AM   #14
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Maybe I'm not picking up what you are putting down, but I believe I would just plug the cores with something, then fill the top two block or so with grout and put your anchors in that.
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe stuff the mother in law's underwear down there or something to plug it off.

The anchors are for side shift only, not to hold the house down during a tornado or something, correct?
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:45 PM   #15
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If they where for lateral load only, they wouldn't need a nut, and they wouldn't be a small bolt. So, yes, they are indeed used as a hold down. You really should check with your own local building codes, but they need to be tied to a grouted pilaster here, and it's just plain good practice. It will also add likely much needed strength to your existing foundation walls..........

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