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Old 04-15-2010, 05:41 AM   #16
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unsure why there's a ' rebar frame ' or even what it is but VERY sure he meant ' slump ' & not ' slup '

$700.00 is EXTREMELY reasonable - that CAN'T include cost of conc, does it ? ? ? its not as we'd like to work but did j'ever see 2 carpenters agree on anything ? i am curious how you'll test for the slump, tho - you have your own cone & rod ? ? ?

from what i read, all the favor's on YOUR side !

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Old 04-15-2010, 07:44 AM   #17
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Slup (schlup) definition:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/schlep

Just kidding. It sounds like this is a fairly straight-up guy who intends to give you a decent job for a fair price.
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:43 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by itsreallyconc View Post
unsure why there's a ' rebar frame ' or even what it is but VERY sure he meant ' slump ' & not ' slup '

$700.00 is EXTREMELY reasonable - that CAN'T include cost of conc, does it ? ? ? its not as we'd like to work but did j'ever see 2 carpenters agree on anything ? i am curious how you'll test for the slump, tho - you have your own cone & rod ? ? ?

from what i read, all the favor's on YOUR side !
yeah, i corrected "slup" to "slump". that is our contract from things i learned here. we don't want to repeat what happened in a 7' cedar fence construction job. b/c of the fence incident, nothing begins until this contract is signed by all. if you can think of any corner that might be cut, Please let me know. the "corner" cut on the cedar fence was totally not foreseen and insane, but he did it, saved money and we now have a cedar fence that will last ten years or so.

what do you mean, "cost of conc..." if concrete, it does. others bid higher. Hey, thanks, i'll ammend the agreement with this is to include the cost of concrete.

about the rebar, each construction site pouring concrete uses this method. all contractors are bidding the job be done this way.
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:23 PM   #19
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please comment on this:
Back Patio Contractor's Agreement


This job will be done for a total not to exceed $700 without the prior detailed and expressed “written” authorization by the homeowner, *********** to the contractor, amending this Agreement. This price is to include cost of the cement. This Agreement will be annotated to indicate this authorization.


  • The following plan and specifications must be followed and met for the job to continue or for payment to be made.
  • The homeowner will arrange for the cement to be delivered. The cement company chosen will be made by the homeowner. Either the contractor will pay for the cement or the homeowner will deduct the amount owed for cement from the $700 and pay for the cement. Simply, the $700 is the cost of the job, including the cement, tools & equipment used, supplies such as rebar and forms and the labor to complete the job.
  • The patio slabs to be laid, of at least 4” concrete depth throughout, will be poured and smoothed to a finish existing on current two slabs of concrete on back patio. No rough finish is acceptable.
  • There will be two separate slabs. There is one replacement slab between two existing slabs and a second that is a new extension of the patio. the slab between the two existing slabs is to be 7'6” by 8'. this slab will be anchored to the two existing slabs by six dowells or more. At least three on each side. The dimensions of the “patio extension” slab are to be 26' by 5'.
  • The cement will be of the strength 3,000lbs and poured at a 4” or 5” “Slump”. If a more liquid pour is desired, a “mid-range” chemical may be added but not water. This will be verified throughout the pour by the homeowner. Pouring is not to begin until this verification is made.
  • A rebar frame of 3/8” rebar will be made of at least 18 pieces of 20' long.
  • The cement will be delivered by either Golden Spread or Thomas Ready Mix.
  • Dirt removed from the digging of the pit for the slabs is to be placed on top of one of two existing dirt piles in the yard, or in a new raised garden, if it is ready in time.
  • The contractor is to use all of his own tools and equipment.
  • No spraying water on cement is to be done.
  • No “Jitter Bugging” or smacking cement with a rack type tool to know the rocks off the top is to be done.
  • The cement will not be laid in windy conditions, 20 mph or more.
  • Any damage caused to property of the homeowner will be paid for by the contractor.
  • The job will be considered complete when the above has been properly performed and the slab is known to be free of defects.
  • A guarantee is made that if cracks develop within the period of two years, the slab will either be removed and replaced or repaired to be free of defects, including visual cracks or blemishes or other defects to the satisfaction of the Homeowner. If defects are repaired or concrete is replaced, this guarantee renews itself for another two years.




Payment will be made when the slabs are completely laid and the above conditions are known to exist.


Homeowner (*********): __________________________________ Date: _________________






Contractor (********): __________________________________ Date: _________________
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Old 04-15-2010, 07:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco View Post
please comment on this:
Back Patio Contractor's Agreement


This job will be done for a total not to exceed $700 without the prior detailed and expressed “written” authorization by the homeowner, *********** to the contractor, amending this Agreement. This price is to include cost of the cement. This Agreement will be annotated to indicate this authorization.


  • The following plan and specifications must be followed and met for the job to continue or for payment to be made.
  • The homeowner will arrange for the cement to be delivered. The cement company chosen will be made by the homeowner. Either the contractor will pay for the cement or the homeowner will deduct the amount owed for cement from the $700 and pay for the cement. Simply, the $700 is the cost of the job, including the cement, tools & equipment used, supplies such as rebar and forms and the labor to complete the job.
  • The patio slabs to be laid, of at least 4” concrete depth throughout, will be poured and smoothed to a finish existing on current two slabs of concrete on back patio. No rough finish is acceptable.
  • There will be two separate slabs. There is one replacement slab between two existing slabs and a second that is a new extension of the patio. the slab between the two existing slabs is to be 7'6” by 8'. this slab will be anchored to the two existing slabs by six dowells or more. At least three on each side. The dimensions of the “patio extension” slab are to be 26' by 5'.
  • The cement will be of the strength 3,000lbs and poured at a 4” or 5” “Slump”. If a more liquid pour is desired, a “mid-range” chemical may be added but not water. This will be verified throughout the pour by the homeowner. Pouring is not to begin until this verification is made.
  • A rebar frame of 3/8” rebar will be made of at least 18 pieces of 20' long.
  • The cementwill be delivered by either Golden Spread or Thomas Ready Mix.
  • Dirt removed from the digging of the pit for the slabs is to be placed on top of one of two existing dirt piles in the yard, or in a new raised garden, if it is ready in time.
  • The contractor is to use all of his own tools and equipment.
  • No spraying water on cement is to be done.
  • No “Jitter Bugging” or smacking cement with a rack type tool to know the rocks off the top is to be done.
  • The cement will not be laid in windy conditions, 20 mph or more.
  • Any damage caused to property of the homeowner will be paid for by the contractor.
  • The job will be considered complete when the above has been properly performed and the slab is known to be free of defects.
  • A guarantee is made that if cracks develop within the period of two years, the slab will either be removed and replaced or repaired to be free of defects, including visual cracks or blemishes or other defects to the satisfaction of the Homeowner. If defects are repaired or concrete is replaced, this guarantee renews itself for another two years.


Payment will be made when the slabs are completely laid and the above conditions are known to exist.


Homeowner (*********): __________________________________ Date: _________________






Contractor (********): __________________________________ Date: _________________
Now, which are you getting...... concrete or cement ?

And the rebar should be specified by bar size and grid dimensions. As stated, the rebar could all be dumped in one spot.

No jitterbugging? You want them to try to trowel finish with rocks present on top? Kind of sounds like it.

As asked before... how are you going to test the slump and verify the additives?
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Last edited by Willie T; 04-15-2010 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie T View Post
Now, which are you getting...... concrete or cement ?

And the rebar should be specified by bar size and grid dimensions. As stated, the rebar could all be dumped in one spot.

No jitterbugging? You want them to try to trowel finish with rocks present on top? Kind of sounds like it.

As asked before... how are you going to test the slump and verify the additives?
- i've replaced all "cement" with concrete. THX!

- how would i specify grid dimensions? "spaced evenly throughout the pit to be filled?"

- i've added that the concrete is to be smoothed with trowels and kept the no jitterbugging.

- i will call the company to deliver the concrete mix. the owner directly. he will send driver with instructions to work w/ me and that nothing more than a 5.5" slump be poured. if the contractor wants a more "slump" then he'll add a chemical, "mid-range" water reducer or something that will make it more easy to work with but not affect strength or price.

- i won't be testing the slump or strength. i am relying on or trying to remove any relationship that might exist or develop between the contractor.

- The contractor i've lined up now seems like a super dude and i'd trust him if the fence job didn't still sit sorely with me.

i will re-post the "agreement" if you like. i just don't want to post it and detract from this reply.

Thanks!
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:39 PM   #22
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here is the revision for the rebar bullet:

  • A rebar frame of will be made of rebar 3/8” thick. The rebar will be placed no more than two feet apart in each direction to form a “grid.” it will be held between the bottom of the pit and surface of the future concrete slabs.
oooops, a friend just suggested "tool joints" in the 26' slab. i specified they shoud be apart 5-10'.
also, i put in a part about the guarantee covering "heaving" of the slabs.

THX!

Last edited by rosco; 04-15-2010 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:16 PM   #23
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here is agreement i hope will cover all the bases or "corners."
Back Patio Contractor's Agreement


This job will be done for a total not to exceed $700 without the prior detailed and expressed “written” authorization by the homeowner, *********** to the contractor, amending this Agreement. This price is to include cost of the concrete. This Agreement will be annotated to indicate this authorization.


  • The following plan and specifications must be followed and met for the job to continue or for payment to be made.
  • The homeowner will arrange for the concrete to be delivered. The concrete company chosen will be made by the homeowner. Either the contractor will pay for the concrete or the homeowner will deduct the amount owed for concrete from the $700 and pay for the concrete. Simply, the $700 is the cost of the job, including the concrete, tools & equipment used, supplies such as rebar and forms and the labor to complete the job.
  • The patio slabs to be laid, of at least 4” concrete depth throughout, will be poured and smoothed to a finish existing on current two slabs of concrete on back patio. No rough finish is acceptable.
  • There will be two separate slabs. There will be one replacement slab between two existing slabs and a second that is a new extension of the patio. the slab between the two existing slabs is to be 7'6” by 8'. this slab will be anchored to the two existing slabs by six dowells or more. At least three on each side. The dimensions of the “patio extension” slab are to be 26' by 5'.
  • The concrete will be of the strength 3,000lbs and poured at a 4” or 5” “Slump”. If a more liquid pour is desired, a “mid-range” chemical may be added but not water. This will be verified throughout the pour by the homeowner. Pouring is not to begin until this verification is made.
  • A rebar frame of will be made of rebar 3/8” thick. The rebar will be placed no more than two feet apart in each direction to form a “grid.” it will be held between the bottom of the pit and surface of the future concrete slabs.
  • The concrete will be delivered by either Golden Spread or Thomas Ready Mix.
  • Dirt removed from the digging of the pit for the slabs is to be placed on top of one of two existing dirt piles in the yard, or in a new raised garden, if it is ready in time.
  • The contractor is to use all of his own tools and equipment.
  • No “Jitter Bugging” or smacking the concrete with a rake-type tool to knock the rocks down from the surface is to be done. The surface is to be smoothed with trowels.
  • Tool joints or expansion joints in the 26' foot slab should be made of at least 1/8” or more and spaced between five and ten feet apart.
  • No spraying water on concrete is to be done.
  • The concrete will not be laid in windy conditions, 20 mph or more.
  • Any damage caused to property of the homeowner will be paid for by the contractor.
  • The job will be considered complete when the above has been properly performed and the slab is known to be free of defects.
  • A guarantee is made that if cracks develop or the slabs begin to “heave” (move up or down or tilt) within the period of two years, the slab will either be removed and replaced or repaired to be free of defects, including visual cracks, “heaving” or other defects to the satisfaction of the Homeowner. If defects are repaired or concrete is replaced, this guarantee renews itself for another two years.


Payment will be made when the slabs are completely laid and the above conditions are known to exist.


Homeowner (*********): __________________________________ Date: _________________






Contractor (********): __________________________________ Date: _________________
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:45 PM   #24
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Things must still be pretty tight in Texas if you’re getting contractors bidding on a job like this for $700.00

This sounds like everything is in your favor and against the contractor. Not a fair agreement to all parties at all.

Just so that I'm clear on the scope of the job;
- Contractor must include the price of the concrete in the job, but you dictate where he must purchase it and what goes in it.

- You will be scheduling the pour, but you’re also saying that pouring with wind speeds exceeding 20mph will not be allowed? Who is going to be responsible for checking and verifying wind speeds? Who is going to pay for sending the truck that you ordered, back if it’s too windy? Who is going to pay the contractor’s time for additional days working or not getting the job complete if it’s too windy at the time that you ordered the concrete?

- You are dictating the bar size that goes in the form, but you force a two year guarantee on cracking and heaving, and on top of that you re-establish the new two year window on the guarantee.

Who is doing the prep work? Are you, or is the contractor prepping?

There is no way that any licensed contractor that I work with will not bust a gut with laughter after reading your 'contract'. All of that for $700.00? Good for you for finding someone to do that for you. I wouldn’t touch it.

I also wouldn't stake my life on anyone that isn't licensed and insured staying around for any "guarantee" work. I can't see any contractor that’s licensed and insured accepting your contract.

Just my thoughts,
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:38 AM   #25
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this guy came recommended from one of the cement companies. actually, all the bidder's have. the contractor with the current lowest bid isn't known to the cement company who will lay the cement. actually, a good friend of the cement company owner was outbid by this guy so i don't think they'll help him cut a corner when it comes to saving $ on the concrete w/o me knowing. also, the cement company that will pour the cement recommends against high winds and won't pour in high wind, in my case. so i won't need to rent a weather station. i like your thought that i should rework the bid so the contractor takes out the price of concrete. that way he will be off his mind. all of them said i can handle the delivery of the concrete and don't care which company i use.

only one contactor said i'd save $ by doing part or all of the prep work since they'd do it again as they want it. and it wouldn't save me hardly anything since most of it is dug and 2x4's are cheap.

The state i live in has the healthiest economy. hopefully it succeeds from the others soon.

thanks water guy for not letting me forget this:
  • The contractor's license and insurance will be presented before work begins


if he doesn't like something in the agreement, then he should say so before and not in court. get my drift. i am pretty sure everyone on this forum who has been screwed by a contractor would cheer.

and, i think if this isn't signed all the power is in contractors hands. if the homeowner thinks he got screwed, he doesn't pay. but then the contractor puts a lien on his house.

again, this will all be detailed and agreed to so we have equal rights to recourse. without the agreement, the contractor is the only one with power. he can put a lien on the house and we can complain to the BBB (which is a complete joke - pay for good rating). and w/o anything in writing, yup, same story as the fence. contractor gets paid and we're left with a sh*tty job. Thieves and crooks are protected in this situation. one thieving contractor low-balls everyone else, gets his money back by screwing the person and makes all contractors look bad. your reply made me separate the contractor from the concrete slurry mixing

Last edited by rosco; 04-17-2010 at 07:10 AM. Reason: it is raining here for mabe a week. a baby was born in India. Obama is a crook, an idiot and bought out by the Fed Reserve
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:43 AM   #26
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i've only imagined that the rebar will be laid in a grid and tied with bailing wire.
what does it mean that the rebar should be "tied-in." is the rebar bent on the ends?

all i know is it should be laid in square grid fashion about 2' apart in both directions and shouldn't stick out of the slab to be poured.

another question is: should there not be some spacing between the two new slabs and the two old slabs? the dowel bars should hold it in place but it seems if they were too close together and any movement occurred there would be cracking.

THX!

Last edited by rosco; 04-16-2010 at 01:47 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:42 PM   #27
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Contractor wants to mix his own cement and with whatever slump. he knows what he is doing. and he won't use but one cement company. hmmm,
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Old 04-17-2010, 04:31 AM   #28
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The contractor had no problem with the agreement until he found out he couldn't post mix the concrete slurry with water in the wheel barrels. he pulled out. So i'm rebidding the job with me taking care of the cement cost and communication separately. Everyone is rebidding, except him.

OH, i found the FENCE contractor's house tonight. He put cheap, untreated white pine rails on an "all cedar fence" and i had not exactly specified that in the agreement. I put 1/2 a box of sugar cubes in his gas tank tonight! Yeah!

Last edited by rosco; 04-17-2010 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:48 AM   #29
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wouldn't accept this job, either,,, $$$ too low & i don't put steel ( wire OR bar ) in 4" slabs ( unless elevated, of course ! )

just finish'd another contractor's ( ? ) project - 450sf 4" broom finish,,, he graded site ( lawn ), formed, & open'd 180b of apron store conc mix when remodeling contractor h/o boot'd him off the job,,, the plan was mixing w/garden hose on ground obviously worth a laugh to anyone & he includ'd weld'd wire mesh ALL for $ 2,300 !

my 3 guys took 5hrs ( form, place, finish, & saw jnts ) = $ 1,000 & NO ' blessing ' of the mud, either ! h/o pd $ 550 for 5.5cy 3,500# 5" slump conc - everyone's happy !
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:56 AM   #30
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itsreallyconc - OH my! 180 bags of cement mix? holy catfish! and he planned on mixing it by hand/foot? the remodeling contractor got lucky catching him when he did. almost too late!!!

all of them want to do the rebar grid. do you put "fiber" in? you don't just pour straight concrete slurry, do you?

the other contractors are bidding somewhere around just over $5cy for 3,000# 5" slump. maybe $5.75cy. can't remember. it is a smaller job so they'll bid higher per cubic yard, of course.
i've changed the contract a lot since i last posted it. one thing was to lightly broom the surface so it isn't slippery. and i'm handling the concrete delivery and the payment. after yesterday's conversation with the contractor coming right out and saying he planned on watering down the concrete slurry delivered to him, i don't want them left unattended with any slurry to go in the pit. i think the contractor that bailed planned on "topping off" the half-full wheel barrels with water as he smoked a cigar.

what are you saying about saw joints? i thought you were being facetious before. do you mean expansion joints that you can make 1/4" deep with a trowel?

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