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Old 09-04-2010, 05:39 PM   #16
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I'm not sure about the fork-lift part, but we certainly use the pallet forks on our skid loaders most of the time, reinforced or not.

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Old 09-04-2010, 11:02 PM   #17
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when you think about it, I'll bet that a "heavy-duty" fork-lift is every bit as powerful as a "bobcat" considering what they have to lift like a pallet loaded with 80# bags of "sakrete".

tnx,
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:18 PM   #18
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you have discovered the true purpose of wire or steel in driveways,,, it makes it more expensive to remove we use a gp bucket & 16# sledge OR bosch brute hammer - makes it easier to load & pack the rolloff containers.

no specifying agency recommends wire or steel in a 4" thick d/w to my knowledge since you need to have it at the vertical midpoint +/- 5%,,, that equates to .1"which's almost impossible after the conc jabonies finish trampling back & forth,,, we do place #4 bar at the throat, however, to add flexural strength from shock/spring rebound from cars.

there are many guys successfully o'laying conc in freeze/thaw climes, jo,,, eliteCrete doesn't just sell in warm parts of the country,,, expansion/contractions is a much a problem here in the s as anywhere else.

ixnay on sackrete/quikcrete, tho,,, enjoy your holiday, guys !
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by analogmusicman View Post
when you think about it, I'll bet that a "heavy-duty" fork-lift is every bit as powerful as a "bobcat" considering what they have to lift like a pallet loaded with 80# bags of "sakrete".

tnx,
It really depends on what kind of forklift you're talking about. A solid tire wharehouse forklift willl lift better no doubt, but it will be stuck instantly as soon as you get off of the pavement. If you mean an off-road forklift, then yes, that would work as well. I still think either a skid loader or excavator is going ot be alot more efficient.

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Originally Posted by itsreallyconc View Post
you have discovered the true purpose of wire or steel in driveways,,, it makes it more expensive to remove we use a gp bucket & 16# sledge OR bosch brute hammer - makes it easier to load & pack the rolloff containers.

no specifying agency recommends wire or steel in a 4" thick d/w to my knowledge since you need to have it at the vertical midpoint +/- 5%,,, that equates to .1"which's almost impossible after the conc jabonies finish trampling back & forth,,, we do place #4 bar at the throat, however, to add flexural strength from shock/spring rebound from cars.

Not even gonna bother discussing this here anymore.....................

there are many guys successfully o'laying conc in freeze/thaw climes, jo,,, eliteCrete doesn't just sell in warm parts of the country,,, expansion/contractions is a much a problem here in the s as anywhere else.

My opinions are merely limited to what I've witnessed first hand. There just isn't much overlay done outside around here. Something tells me there's a reason the market has little demand for it. And it's definately not due to a lack of damaged flatwork surfaces.

It has far less to do with the expansion/contraction issues as it does with freeze/thaw issues as well.

ixnay on sackrete/quikcrete, tho,,, enjoy your holiday, guys !

Ditto on everyone enjoying their holiday.
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Old 09-06-2010, 10:30 AM   #20
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Guys, I've followed this post and will put my 2 cents in here. Polymer overlays have come a long way. Gone are the days of throwing a little paint and cement together and smearing it on a slab of concrete. Why do you think a whole bunch of these "manufactures" are in cozy warm climate areas? Their crap can't hold up to the freeze/thaw cycles we have in the upper midwest. There's good-bad-and ugly out there.

Most systems require a "binder" applied and their acrylic, poly vinyl acetate or styrene fortified overlay placed atop of this "glue". They are getting a mechanical bond much how paint sticks..... and we all know how well paint sticks to concrete.

I'm an 8 year installer of Elite Crete Systems overlay products. I've NEVER had a failure due to freeze/thaw. In fact, I've never had a failure due to the products. I've had 2 call backs and they were due to excess grinding of 2 pieces of concrete at a control joint. It popped off a little section of a Thin Stamped overlay. It took a whole thimble full of product to repair.

The problem with failing overlays are impropper surface prep and improper product installation.... and of course improper choice of products.

I've been a concrete contractor for over 40 years, half of which has been in the decorative arena. I now only accept "difficult projects" and have been teaching this for 4 years. (I thought teaching would be easier) boy was I wrong..... anyway, jomama, come to one of my trainings. Stop by in Indy and I'll take you for a tour of my past projects. Elite Crete has tackled the freeze/thaw with a hybrid polymer additive. (They are manufactured in northern Indiana). As with any trade/product, it's the bad apples of the group that spoils the whole basket. gene
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsinc View Post
Guys, I've followed this post and will put my 2 cents in here. Polymer overlays have come a long way. Gone are the days of throwing a little paint and cement together and smearing it on a slab of concrete. Why do you think a whole bunch of these "manufactures" are in cozy warm climate areas? Their crap can't hold up to the freeze/thaw cycles we have in the upper midwest. There's good-bad-and ugly out there.

Most systems require a "binder" applied and their acrylic, poly vinyl acetate or styrene fortified overlay placed atop of this "glue". They are getting a mechanical bond much how paint sticks..... and we all know how well paint sticks to concrete.

I'm an 8 year installer of Elite Crete Systems overlay products. I've NEVER had a failure due to freeze/thaw. In fact, I've never had a failure due to the products. I've had 2 call backs and they were due to excess grinding of 2 pieces of concrete at a control joint. It popped off a little section of a Thin Stamped overlay. It took a whole thimble full of product to repair.

The problem with failing overlays are impropper surface prep and improper product installation.... and of course improper choice of products.


Again, my point isn't that it won't ever work, but I just don't see it as a DIY job. The OP is a "DIY'er" afterall, as well as many of the folks here looking for help & direction, as this is the premise of this very forum.

Call me cynical, maybe it's because I'm a mason first, and expect projects to last an extremely long time w/o much maintanence, but I don't consider 8 years as a very long time. I respect any contractor like yourself that will stand behind their product and come back and do these repairs free of charge, but feel you're really asking alot out of your customers to put all their faith in you long term. What if you go out of biz. a year after you do the install? Who is the HO at the mercy of then?

I've been a concrete contractor for over 40 years, half of which has been in the decorative arena. I now only accept "difficult projects" and have been teaching this for 4 years. (I thought teaching would be easier) boy was I wrong..... anyway, jomama, come to one of my trainings. Stop by in Indy and I'll take you for a tour of my past projects. Elite Crete has tackled the freeze/thaw with a hybrid polymer additive. (They are manufactured in northern Indiana). As with any trade/product, it's the bad apples of the group that spoils the whole basket. gene

I appreciate the offer, but I'll have to kindly pass. I went through a clinic with a veteran installer/sales rep from Solomon/Legacy a few years ago. It took place at a ready-mix suppliers yard. Ironically, one of the pieces he had overlayed during his demo the year before was already de-laminating. That was enough for me. I've got enough headaches, I don't need anymore. And most importantly, there is little to no market here for the system from what I can see.


I'll just let the OP get quotes on each process here and let him make his decision, as I don't think there will be a substantial difference in cost between the 2.


And dcs, Welcome to the forum, I hope you stick around and put your "2 cents" in on more topics in the future. I feel the more opinions present here, the better.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:14 PM   #22
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I agree with you this isn't a project that a home owner goes to Menard's and get the crap they sell off the shelf. That's why Elite Crete only sells to certified installers.

As far as the sales rep that did the "dog and pony show" Is this the same guy that moved on to Butterfield? I'm not going to bad mouth other product lines out there. I can tell you the major differences though.

Anyway, don't be so closed minded on product lines available. One just needs to do their home work first. And yes, I've seen many a masonry project go belly up before it's time also.

As with any decorative project, there's maintenance involved to keep it viable. You keep your new car cleaned and waxed don't you? Same does with any surface that takes wear and tear. Usually just a reseal every 2 or 3 years is all that's needed. Our products are more salt/corrosive resistant than concrete but as with any material, if you drag your boat anchor across it, you will scratch it. (Which is easy to fix).

You'd be surprised by how many overlays are being installed in your area. In fact, I could call the local EC Distributor near you and get the exact numbers..... and that's just Elite Crete's stuff. Hey, I was the hardest guy to sell smearing some peanut butter over concrete and putting my name on it. After learning just how this product achieves a mechanical and chemical bond, and my own abusive experiments, I changed my mind.

OK, enough bantering. I will swing in on occasion and see if I can help. Thanks, gene
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:50 PM   #23
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so, the big question is: "how does the Quikrete topping product stack up against Elite-crete or is there no comparison?"

tnx,
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:56 PM   #24
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I dunno...but I need my concrete pool deck resurfaced
So as soon as you find something & test it for a while let me know
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:32 AM   #25
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how does it compare,,, lessee, if you find it in an apron store, that should answer your question fully,,, eg - you do know they sell sump pumps, right ? then why do most waterproofing pro's use the zoeller m-53 which's more expensive than comparable flo-tecs.

eliteCrete isn't as big compared to schofield, sher-wms, or some others in the dec conc o'lay & wanna-be craft,,, many of the manufacturing companies have gone tits-up or been swallowed by others,,, true, there are guys out there who can do good work using other's stuff,,, but, if i truly felt i wasn't using the best mtl & method, we'd switch in a heartbeat,,, fact of the matter is, there ain't !

the point made about this item being diy-h/o is a good 1,,, while many have the untapped raw ability, they lack proper training, knowledge, experience, materials, equipment, & attitude to do the work right,,, however, even a blind pig finds an ear of corn once in awhile

jo, have known gene & his work for almost 10yrs but we just met face-to-face last yr at world of conc when he was 1 of 10 invited artists/artisans/demonstrators in the dec lot/arena,,, good guy,,, so are the others in boston & across the country,,, it really has become a brotherhood
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:13 PM   #26
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As far as the sales rep that did the "dog and pony show" Is this the same guy that moved on to Butterfield? I'm not going to bad mouth other product lines out there. I can tell you the major differences though.

I'd e hard pressed to remember his name, maybe his face if I saw it though. I do recall he was formerly an installer in Illinois before he took the job.


As with any decorative project, there's maintenance involved to keep it viable. You keep your new car cleaned and waxed don't you? Same does with any surface that takes wear and tear. Usually just a reseal every 2 or 3 years is all that's needed. Our products are more salt/corrosive resistant than concrete but as with any material, if you drag your boat anchor across it, you will scratch it. (Which is easy to fix).

I think that is a good point in general. Typically, a standard grey broomed job with a scratch or blemish is going to be a lot less noticeable than any decorative work, meaning more maintanence. Again, call me cynical, but I have a hard time selling concrete work as an amazingly strong building material compared to anythign else used in residential work in one breath, and then warning a HO that they need to tread lightly on the surface to keep it looking acceptable.

OK, enough bantering. I will swing in on occasion and see if I can help. Thanks, gene
I hope you do return, I appreciate learning new things myself.

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jo, have known gene & his work for almost 10yrs but we just met face-to-face last yr at world of conc when he was 1 of 10 invited artists/artisans/demonstrators in the dec lot/arena,,, good guy,,, so are the others in boston & across the country,,, it really has become a brotherhood
I really have no reason to doubt the knowledge, talent, or quality of either you or Gene. Merely stating my own opinion, and hope it didn't come off as being harsh.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:33 AM   #27
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not harsh at all,,, there's tons of jabonies out there & we've certainly got our share here in atl

have often thought about that - hard to blemish a broom'd surface,,, but once its decorated by whatever method, conc becomes ' art we walk or drive on ' & something else around the house to take care of, right ?

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