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chronojosh 12-21-2011 11:56 AM

Cold bedroom
 
I looked around the site and found similar questions, but still unsure about how the answers apply to my situation. Here's the setup of my home first: I live in a one story ranch built in the 1956. It has a full basement, which is partially finished (3/4 of it has walls, but no ceiling, and has a the original concrete floor, the other 1/4 is unfinished bare cinderblock walls), but there is no heat installed in the basement. The only heat sources down there are the furnace and hot water heater. Up stairs I have remodeled the kitchen, living room, and one bedroom. This has included all new R-15 insulation in the walls, and R-30 in the attic. The master bedroom has not been gutted yet so it is still original. The insulation that is in the attic in the remaining portion of the house is Vermiculite (yes I know it may be asbestos!) and the walls probably have what the rest of the house had, Balsam wool. the unfinished portion of the basement is underneath the master bedroom and the master bedroom is down a 12' hallway from the remodeled living room. Now here's where my problem lies.....the master bedroom is noticeable colder than the rest of the house. If I leave the master bedroom and walk into the hallway a couple feet the temperature is noticeable warmer. Should I install rigid foam insulation under the floor? I will be remodeling this room eventually, but not this winter. There is fiberglass bats against the sills in the basement, and an insulated door in the bulkhead entrance. I'm just sick of having a cold bedroom!!!

chronojosh 12-21-2011 11:57 AM

Also, I have and oil furnace with forced hot water and cast iron baseboard radiators and convectors throughout main floor. They are all properly bled and all work. Don't know if that helps.

AGWhitehouse 12-21-2011 04:55 PM

Is the bedroom at the end of hydronic heating loop? If so, that will make a slight difference. If it is at the end, try to find a way to adjust the radiators to turn down the rooms at the head of the loop and open up the ones in the master to full.

Insulating the floor, walls, attic would certainly help for starters. The basement space will hover around 55deg.F to coincide with the earth soil temp. Your attic insulation should really be upped to at least R-38 which is the current code minimum for many areas.

If you're handy with pllumbing you can add more heating elements within the master.

BigGuy01 12-21-2011 07:27 PM

get your insulation up to code.

You should have at least R-38. Or R-41. Personally, if it were my house, I'd get R-48, and far exceed code requirements. That would make a huge difference on the temperatures in your room. Same with in the cieling.

Doing my friends bedroom a while back, we took out all the insulation, and put in R-50 Vacuum Insulated Panels, and then put the drywall and taped it back up.

Needless to say, when it was 27 degrees out, his bedroom was 65 degrees, and his heaters were off... while the rest of his house was about 40 or so degrees. (everything else was R-38 fiberglass and then insulating foam to fill in gaps etc.)

when he turns his heater on, his bedroom reaches 75 degrees very, very quickly.

Definitely look into Vacuum insulated panels.

BigGuy01 12-21-2011 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGWhitehouse (Post 799619)
Is the bedroom at the end of hydronic heating loop? If so, that will make a slight difference. If it is at the end, try to find a way to adjust the radiators to turn down the rooms at the head of the loop and open up the ones in the master to full.

Insulating the floor, walls, attic would certainly help for starters. The basement space will hover around 55deg.F to coincide with the earth soil temp. Your attic insulation should really be upped to at least R-38 which is the current code minimum for many areas.

If you're handy with pllumbing you can add more heating elements within the master.

HVAC-R is not conducted by a Plumber, it is done by an Licensed HVAC Technician. HVAC-R Technicians have to be certified through the EPA and State agencies to do HVAC-R work.

As far as adding new heating elements into the bedroom, furthest I'd go is a portable, interior heater. One that is rated for residential use. Or, buy a propane tank, and a $30 heat lamp, install the lamp in the tank, and light it. Propane is non-toxic, so the fumes would be safe as long as he turned the tank off when he was done using it, or before he left the home. Just gotta keep pets etc. away from it.

EDIT

If the OPs got the money, you can get Vacuum Insulated Panels as high as R-92, but those are about $40 a panel, and are typically only found in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Building, (that I know of)

High Gear 12-21-2011 11:23 PM

Replacing the sill band glass ins with 2" xps or spray foaming can make a

worthwhile difference as it will seal any cracks also.

A window insulator kit for that bedroom also will help as you probably have the old single pane type.

The warmest room in my house is the spare bedroom with the computer in it that is always on .

AGWhitehouse 12-21-2011 11:31 PM

Not sure what you mean in referencing my post and noting HVAC-R.

VIPs sound like more of a hassle than they are worth. It's like building a house out of glass...though you don't see it. I found a pretty informative packet, but page 22 is where you see the fragile nature. If you damage or puncture the system you drastically reduce it's effectivness. Add in all the thermal breaks from the panel seams and you have a system that probably isn't great unless you have a specific requirement. closed cell spray foam will likely rival this product as far as a bang-for-your-buck analysis. VIPs are so sensitive to manufacturing, transportation, handling, and end-use protection that it's tough to justify it's use in a "typical" home.

http://www.ecbcs.org/docs/Annex_39_R...ubtask-A-B.pdf

BigGuy01 12-22-2011 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGWhitehouse (Post 800021)
Not sure what you mean in referencing my post and noting HVAC-R.

VIPs sound like more of a hassle than they are worth. It's like building a house out of glass...though you don't see it. I found a pretty informative packet, but page 22 is where you see the fragile nature. If you damage or puncture the system you drastically reduce it's effectivness. Add in all the thermal breaks from the panel seams and you have a system that probably isn't great unless you have a specific requirement. closed cell spray foam will likely rival this product as far as a bang-for-your-buck analysis. VIPs are so sensitive to manufacturing, transportation, handling, and end-use protection that it's tough to justify it's use in a "typical" home.

http://www.ecbcs.org/docs/Annex_39_R...ubtask-A-B.pdf

You stated he should call a plumber to install heating elements in his room, that in and of itself is HVAC-R, not Plumbing. Anything related to HVAC-R, you have to be licensed by the EPA to legally do anything related to it, and also have to be state licensed to do it as well. (in majority of states, however, EPA licensing is required per Fed Gov)

Electricians are not trained at all to install heating elements for air temperatures in a home/facility. Nor are Plumbers. Electricians aren't even allowed to wire a heater, let alone install heating elements.

HVAC-R is a completely different set of Electrical and Mechanical Codes, and Environmental Laws Electricians and Plumbers don't even touch. And no homeowner should even be attempting to touch it. That homeowner could kill their entire family and not realize it until its too late. That is why HVAC-R requires EPA certifications. and Licensing.

That said, regarding VIPs, so far, haven't had any issues of anykind at all working with it. The panels have edge layers, each layer is individually vacuumed. If a nail goes through a spot for instance, it'll be a 1/8'' x 1/8'' grid that loses its seal, leaving the rest of the panel completely intact. (I've used it a few times... and know maintenance personelle at the Bill and Millenda Gates Foundation Building who work with it extensively)

You can also get VIPs made with a Kevlar layering, which have specific locations designated to be punctured for photos etc. Putting nails etc. outside of the locations manufactured for that, and nails wont go into it.

It can also stop small arms fire up to 7.62mm. Wall will get damaged, but the bullet wont pass through. Kevlar VIPs run for about $230 a sheet. Which I can see being extreme overkill for a home unless you were a CEO or president or something...

In my experience, I've never had issues working with VIP. If you get the VIPs that are grided inside, it'll have 1/8'' vacuum pockets throughout it. Allowing multiple punctures etc. with little compromise to its overall effectiveness.

AGWhitehouse 12-22-2011 08:21 AM

Thanks BigGuy, I never knew that technicality...So an HVAC-R is a "specialized" plumber and electrician all in one...

BigGuy01 12-23-2011 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGWhitehouse (Post 800205)
Thanks BigGuy, I never knew that technicality...So an HVAC-R is a "specialized" plumber and electrician all in one...

HVAC-R is only licensed to do electrical work withing an HVAC-R unit.

by law, the only "HVAC-R Work" anyone can legally do, is changing air filters, and installing ducting. Otherwise, you need an HVAC-R and EPA licensing by law.

HVAC-R Techs do a lot of Electronics Technician work, as far as electrical work goes, if it's not contained inside the unit itself, or directly connected to the Unit, an HVAC-R tech cannot touch it unless licensed, or working alongside a Licensed Electrician.

As far as Plumbing work goes, a HVAC-R Tech can only connect the pre existing gas and/or water pipes to the unit.

A Plumber will install the gas lines, water lines, any other kind of piping and tubing the HVAC-R technician needs. But to actually connect anything to the HVAC-R unit, (whether if its a heater, furnace, air conditioner, etc) the HVAC-R Technician by law has to be the one to do it. Just how an Electrician can run the wires to the machine, but the Electrician by law is not permitted to connect any wires to the machine itself.

Only "plumbing" an HVAC-R technician does other than that, is run soft copper tubing inside the machines, solder copper and brass, install couplings, etc. But in regards to "electrical work" outside of connecting the wires to the device itself, an HVAC-Rs scope is more along the lines of an Electronics Technician, rather than an Electrician if that makes sense?


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