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Can someone tell me what is wrong with this 4x4 Lumber?

6K views 52 replies 18 participants last post by  oh'mike 
#1 ·
Hi all, I am new to the forum. I'm hoping that someone can tell me what is wrong with this wood. I had a guy come out to knock out an enclosed patio and install new posts. He put these posts in. He only used 4x4 pine (I believe) even though I wanted Cedar (he said it was too expensive). He only attached it at the top with metal plates and he "forgot" to connect them to the concrete. There are 4 posts. 2 swing in the wind. I tried to get him to fix it and he avoided me for months so I am taking him to small claims. My court date is Tuesday.
I have a ton of pictures to show the judge, as well as a video of the posts swinging around. But what I want to know is why these posts look chewed up and split. These pictures were taken about 4 months after he installed. He SAID it was pressure treated but I don't know. I also priced all the material he used and he COULD have done cedar. I'm so frustrated. Its hard being a woman cause contractors just walk all over us. Worst part is... this guy was a highschool friend I've known for 20 years.
:furious:

Thanks in advance!

Amy


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CLICK THIS PICTURE TO SEE THE VIDEO


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#17 ·
I have some treated 3x4's that have about the same color.....the fact that they still look like that after this long kind of supports that they are treated....raw pine would have taken on a much more weathered look by now.
 
#22 ·
So sorry about your run of luck. Those posts look like he pulled them off a pallet he found in the parking lot. The posts probably were tight and then shrunk down. This is completely unacceptable for his lack of honor. For stealing from an old friend. Betrail of trust is the worst thing about this whole job. Please note, many contractors do incredibly good work. You will find someone you can trust that will do a good job for you. Do not give up on your house.
 
#25 ·
In my opinion, I would not have done that type of post like that. I would have used carriage bolts and bolted it to the side of the header board. Might not be as strong for bearing the weight of the roof . I may also put in some cross braces as well. They probably make a real nice bracket for this situation but I just do not use them.
 
#28 ·
That's a mending plate, not the right one to use for this.
Your also missing the diaganals to keep that roof from swaying, and the hurracane ties to keep the roof from up lifting.
 
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#29 ·
Man you really got the sh*t end of the stick on this deal. My heart goes out to you as I don’t want to see anybody get screwed over like that especially from a friend no less. I live in Canada and if I could I would drive all the way down to rip everything out and install everything correctly including the fence at no cost to you. It is such a shame…
 
#46 ·
Just a thought on getting the building department involved-----

They don't care who screwed up the work----they will make the homeowner bring the work up to code---

A homeowner is foolish to call in the inspectors unless they are prepared to live with the consequences.

Your problem---you fix it---if someone else caused the problem---they don't care--it's your problem.

Would you pull over a cop and tell him your car was unsafe to drive and not expect him to write you a ticket?
 
#48 ·
Just a thought on getting the building department involved-----

They don't care who screwed up the work----they will make the homeowner bring the work up to code---

A homeowner is foolish to call in the inspectors unless they are prepared to live with the consequences.

Your problem---you fix it---if someone else caused the problem---they don't care--it's your problem.

Would you pull over a cop and tell him your car was unsafe to drive and not expect him to write you a ticket?

Hi Oh'mike, You are 100% right, it would be more hassle. Everyone is overthinking this whole thing though. There is ALOT involved that I don't really think anyone has interest in getting in to. I'm not going to criminal court. No jury. No lawyers. Its civil. Meaning the judge cannot award "damages" and he cannot force the other party to do something. Its for money owed. Period. That is what small claims is. He owes me money based on the fact that he did not do the job I paid him to do and he did not use the material he charged me for. Thats all the judge has to determine. I will state my case, provide the 2" binder full of evidence, show where I told him what I wanted, he told me what he would do and the evidence that shows he ADMITTED doing it wrong. I also have the testimony from one of the workers he hired to help do the job saying that the day they left the worksite, he said he had to go back and fix it and then later said he wasn't going to. After I present all that, he has a chance to defend himself. The judge will decide if he did what I paid him to do or if I didn't get what I paid for and he will rule on it that way. The judge isn't going to look at work done 10 years ago and ask if a permit was used. He isn't going to ask for pictures, inspections, etc of a job that doesn't pertain to this.

As for all the questions not relevant to it:

1. Yes, we had a permit to build the enclosed patio (considered a sunroom) onto the house. The city inspected it 1/2 way through the job. It passed inspection. They didn't inspect it upon completion because it never got completed. A storm came through and knocked an entire wall out (windows, door, sheetrock, etc). So NO, it wouldn't have passed inspection at that time. I have documentation from the insurance company that came out, inspected it, gave their evaluation of it and gave me money to repair it.
Dallas, TX does not require permits for this type of job. Here is their requirements:

For a complete list of construction work for which permits are not required, see Chapter 52, Section 301(b) of the Dallas City Code (Dallas Building Code).
The following partial list includes the most important items.
  • Stopping of leaks in pipes, drains or plumbing fixtures if the repair does not require replacement or rearrangement of valves, pipes, or fixtures
  • Nonstructural interior remodeling of single family or two family dwellings that does not add floor area or change exterior doors or windows
NO PERMIT is required for the following except in certain areas such as historic districts, conservation districts and planned development districts that have additional requirements.
  • Re-roofing of single-family or duplex dwellings, if the value of work does not exceed $500 dollars
  • Erection of utility buildings with floor area of less than 200 square feet, without utilities, on single-family or duplex premises
  • Erection of patio covers with an area less than 200 square feet on single-family or duplex premises (may not be within a front yard setback or side yard setback area)
  • Erection of fences not over four feet high in a front yard, nor over six feet elsewhere
  • Adding of storm windows, shutters, trim, awnings, siding, rain gutters, or insulation to a building
  • Attaching window awnings to exterior walls of single-family homes where the awnings project not more than 54 inches from any wall (projections in required setbacks are limited to 12 inches)
  • Construction of decks, platforms, walks, or driveways not more than 30 inches above grade and not over any basement or story on single-family or duplex premises
  • Installation of prefabricated swimming pools accessory to single-family or duplex dwellings in which the pool wall is completely above adjacent grade and the pool capacity does not exceed 5,000 gallons
  • Erection of carports of 200 square feet or less that are accessory to single-family or duplex dwellings (may not be within a front-yard front yard setback or side yard setback )
  • Erection of retaining walls which are not over four feet in height measured from the bottom of the footing to the top of the wall
2. I have no intentions of saying a "guy from the forum said it was unsafe". I just wanted to know, in this thread, what was wrong with the wood. I have PROOF the roof is unsafe (the video). I also have an appraiser that came out to eval my house cause I want to sell it that said, in his writeup, that it would not pass inspection and would need to be fixed to industry standard. He deducted value on my house because of the fence and patio. That will be used as evidence too.
3. The reason I posted to this forum was to find out what was wrong with the wood. I didn't want to say it was "chewed up" because thats not a proper term... or that would give him the opportunity to say my dogs chewed it (which they obviously didn't) but he would try to say that. I wanted to know what was wrong with it. I've never heard of the word "waning" and looked it up after someone posted it. Definition is: a defect in a plank or board characterized by bark or insufficient wood at a corner or along an edge, due to the curvature of the log. I will definitely use that term in court along with the fact that it could be damage from the forklift. If people on here told me that was natural and all patio post do that, then I would know I couldn't use that as part of my case.

As far as the fence goes, someone asked why I would want metal post. I am not sure where ya'll live, but in texas, wood posts suck!! We have cracks in our yards that swallow pets (literally). The wood posts never hold up. Metal lasts 10x longer. Builders use cheap wood posts and 2 years later you have to call them out to replace the whole fence cause its leaning. We have "shared" fences and 3 sides of my fence are metal posts. They have held up through all kinds of weather. The one side that is wood (cause those neighbors were too cheap to do metal) has fallen down 3 times. I finally got sick of it and paid for it to be fixed (lucky them, except I hired an idiot). In Texas, when someone pays for a fence and uses wood posts, THEY get the question "why on earth would someone use wood posts on a fence". So, thats why I wanted metal. 2 of my wood posts cracked in half during the storm so I just wanted them all replaced with something that would withstand the texas weather.

In fact, one of the suburbs of dallas just passed this ordinance:

On Monday 8/7/2012, the Frisco City Council approved the new fence ordinance to include galvanized steel post on all new and replacement wood fence over 4-feet tall. This new ordinance is effective immediately. Hence, any new permits requested for new or replacement wood fence would require galvanized steel posts.

Hope I clarified some things and I appreciate all the responses to the original question about "what is wrong with this lumber".
 
#51 ·
Please let us now how this works out---I am starting a project soon that might have been worked on by this same 'contractor'---

the homeowners are well healed ,and pragmatic,enough to forget about the clipping they received and move on---that is fortunate---not everyone can walk away from a bad deal without hurting---
 
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#52 ·
Please let us now how this works out---I am starting a project soon that might have been worked on by this same 'contractor'---

the homeowners are well healed ,and pragmatic,enough to forget about the clipping they received and move on---that is fortunate---not everyone can walk away from a bad deal without hurting---
:gunsmilie: I WON! Judgement against him for the full amount plus court costs. Judge was disgusted! He has 10 days to appeal, but I highly doubt he will.
Now comes the fun part. Trying to collect.

Thank you everyone for sharing your advice and knowledge! :thumbup:
 
#2 ·
Doesn't look like any pressure treat i've ever seen. As to what species it is, I don't know, but it must be some kind of low grade lumber considering how torn up it is. :eek:

Besides that, if they are just sitting on concrete and 2 of the 4 move, then they were cut too short or the others too long. :jester: Not to mention i'll bet they should have some kind of bracket installed to hold them in place.


I'm just a plumber though, you should wait for someone more knowledgeable on the subject to confirm the points i've made.

As far as your lawsuit : Does he have a license? Did you ask him to see his license? Does this job require a permit? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's up to the homeowner to ask for licensing information and make sure the proper permit process is followed.
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
As far as your lawsuit : Does he have a license? Did you ask him to see his license? Does this job require a permit? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's up to the homeowner to ask for licensing information and make sure the proper permit process is followed.
Hi Alan, thanks for your reply. He SAID he has a license, but now I'm doubting he does, however, I believe in the State of Texas (I live in Dallas), they don't HAVE to have one. He supposedly worked for a construction company called XXX Construction. Shortly after he did the work, he put himself on Angie's List (yes, I gave him an F and he is in their penalty box). He is XTZ Construction in Garland, TX. He "hired" a friend to help. I guess he "sub contracted" and that person suposedly does this type of work for a living and he TOLD me he was licensed too. I also gave him an F on Angie's List. He is ZYX Construction in Wylie, TX (for anyone that has an Angie's list and cares to read the entire ugly review).

Gee where do I start?
#1 He did not take the time to pick through the pile to find limber in better condition.
#2 There is no post cap.
#3 There is no post base.
#4 There is no footing below the post built into the slab to support it.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/AC-ACE-LPCZ-LCE.asp

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ABA-ABU-ABW.asp

Oh ya you got ripped off.

Post should never be in direct contact with the slab or there going to rot.
Hi Joecaption! Thanks for the links! I knew it should be connected to the concrete but didn't know about the top cap, however, I DID notice that he didn't connect the boards at the top and used several "shims" to fill a gap.

You said that this is supposed to be an enclosed patio?
You have not said where this is; Canada, New Mexico, etc?
BTW...your friend from high school for 20 years is an a-hole.
Andy.
Hi Andy! Thanks for the reply. It WAS enclosed, sorta. Yet one more person that ripped me off. My cousins husband built the enclosed patio. Didn't finish, didn't use the right material, etc... I got so frustrated with him I just told him to LEAVE. Few years later, storm came through and tore the whole side of the patio off. It was crap anyways so when the insurance company gave me money to fix it (and I had to pay the 1800 dollar deductible), I decided to just tear out the walls and put in posts and just leave it as a covered patio, not enclosed. You are also right. TOTAL A-HOLE. At least I have all the email correspondence where he told me NOT to work with contractors that were going to screw me over, that he would do the job and do it right. Yeah, learned my lesson. Don't even get me started on what he did to my fence. He had the NERVE to threaten ME when I said I was taking him to court.

While it's possible it is pressure treated, I really doubt it is.
And he didn't "forget" to fasten the bottom of posts, he obviously never planned to in the first place.
Find someone a little more trustworthy to fix that.
Also, you need to do something with those exposed roof rafter ends or they will rot away pretty quick.
Hi Wrongdave! Thanks for the reply. When I sent him the video he told me that he and the other guy "forgot" to attach to the concrete. He sent me a picture of some L bracket metal type thing and said they would come install those. I told him NO, you will take the post out and use the footing like you are supposed to. He agreed and then I never heard from him again (I have it all in emails). Also fighting with him about the fence. He didnt set the posts even and the panels wouldn't attach so he left out 26 of the bolts that hold the fence to the post. SIGH. He tried to say that wind probably blew them out. I'm blonde, but not that blonde! :eek:
As soon as I win the case and he pays me my money back, I'll hire someone after doing an extensive reference check. But until then, I can't fix the patio or fence. He took all my money, wouldn't give me an invoice (so I didn't get my depreciation check) and I'm at the mercy of the judge now. I contracted West Nile over the summer so I was fighting with him about it while on my death bed. Sad. I'm a single mom and I rescue mastiffs and he KNOWS all this. He knows how important the safety of my backyard is because of my dogs. Just sucks.

Very poor grade of material. It does look like treated, but still should not sit directly on the end grain. I cannot believe anyone would use such a low quality material for an exposed post, but I see it pretty often.
Hi Troubleseeker! Thanks for your reply. He told me since he wasn't doing cedar, he would get a high quality pine that would last a long time. He literally used 7 metal fence posts and material to connect them to the existing fence (1/2 a$$) and the four posts for the patio and he charged me 1200 for material. SIGH.

Some one saw an easy mark. Such ashame, spoils it for all of use that care about what we do.
Yes, unfortnately many contractors lately have seen me as an easy mark but I dont let them pull one over on me. I let my guard down with him cause I've known him forever. the one good thing for me is that he had someone here helping but I didn't know who until 3 days ago when the person told me that he tried to get him to fix it all right but he said it wasn't necessary. I have it all in writing so I'll be able to use that as evidence too.

I truly appreciate everyone's replies! I hate even going outside because it reminds me of a friend basically stealing $2000 dollars from me.
 
#3 ·
#4 ·
That wood is not pressure treated, as has been said before; no post caps no post bases. Bases should be stand-off type.
You said that this is supposed to be an enclosed patio?
It is possible that you do not need nor are required by code to have footings under the posts. This would depend on how much the over-all assembly weighs.
You have not said where this is; Canada, New Mexico, etc?

BTW...your friend from high school for 20 years is an a-hole.

Andy.
 
#6 ·
While it's possible it is pressure treated, I really doubt it is.
And he didn't "forget" to fasten the bottom of posts, he obviously never planned to in the first place.
Find someone a little more trustworthy to fix that. If you don't require footings, that should be a pretty easy fix.

Also, you need to do something with those exposed roof rafter ends or they will rot away pretty quick.
 
#7 ·
Very poor grade of material. It does look like treated, but still should not sit directly on the end grain. It will rot, as these posts are almost always cut from the center of the log and do not absorb chemicals completely.
I cannot believe anyone would use such a low quality material for an exposed post, but I see it pretty often.
 
#8 ·
I agree it does look like pressure treated But still looks like poop.
Some one saw an easy mark. Such ashame, spoils it for all of use that care about what we do.
 
#19 ·
It is pt and difference is noticeable compared to regular lumber that is the roof.
That chewed up piece is probably lumberyard reject that your buddy got for half price.
In court, emphasize that that roof is only temporarily supported as he finished it. Permanence must have metal ties both top and bottom, and nails, and all metal in contact with treated wood must be double dip galvanized or stainless. Toe nail, as he did from the post into the girder, is absolutely not acceptable as toe nail tends to split the wood, and not enough nail bites into not enough wood. Go to homedepot, ask somebody at the special order desk or somebody even half familiar with metal ties used for decking, and take some samples of ties and nails with you to the court. If you don't have a contract that specified cedar and have paid for cedar, you can't say you could have had cedar for your money. Don't say anything about the condition of your slab, since you did not ask for it to be repaired.
Even well done posts, in your case, should have cross brace from the supporting beam to the posts. Braces don't have to be big, since the roof and its plywood deck takes majority of the racking force,
 
#21 ·
It is pt and difference is noticeable compared to regular lumber that is the roof.
That chewed up piece is probably lumberyard reject that your buddy got for half price.
In court, emphasize that that roof is only temporarily supported as he finished it. Permanence must have metal ties both top and bottom, and nails, and all metal in contact with treated wood must be double dip galvanized or stainless. Toe nail, as he did from the post into the girder, is absolutely not acceptable as toe nail tends to split the wood, and not enough nail bites into not enough wood. Go to homedepot, ask somebody at the special order desk or somebody even half familiar with metal ties used for decking, and take some samples of ties and nails with you to the court. If you don't have a contract that specified cedar and have paid for cedar, you can't say you could have had cedar for your money. Don't say anything about the condition of your slab, since you did not ask for it to be repaired.
Even well done posts, in your case, should have cross brace from the supporting beam to the posts. Braces don't have to be big, since the roof and its plywood deck takes majority of the racking force,
Hi Carpdad, Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I'm going to do exactly what you said. Its hard to take a patio to court. I have taken dozens of pictures of the patio and fence so hopefully the judge will understand how bad it is.
I didn't have a contract, per se, but I do have it in writing where I told him I wanted cedar and he said he couldn't do cedar for what he was charging. Later, I went to home depot AND lowes after writing down all the material he purchased and priced all the material. He told me he got it all from a supplier (cheaper than HD or Lowes) and at Home Depot, the material he used cost about $360 total. I priced cedar and it was $525 (cause literally he only used four 4x4's). He charged me $1200 for material and $800 for labor. His ORIGINAL quote was $3900 and when I flipped out on that, he dropped it in half.. so I'd say he def didn't use the material that I specified wanting.
 
#26 ·
Not sure what type fence you have but I've never heard of someone using bolts to attach the panels.
The post are never even when you set them. You set the post, let the concrete harden then the best way is to use a self leveling lazer level to mark the post and cut them off even. Even a brick string pulled tight will work.
I install the rails using ceramic coated decking screws then just set the panels up on the rails and use screws to attach them.
 
#39 ·
Not sure what type fence you have but I've never heard of someone using bolts to attach the panels.
The post are never even when you set them. You set the post, let the concrete harden then the best way is to use a self leveling lazer level to mark the post and cut them off even. Even a brick string pulled tight will work.
I install the rails using ceramic coated decking screws then just set the panels up on the rails and use screws to attach them.
Hmmm, maybe even wasn't the word I was looking for. Usually, I think people use a string or something so that the post is in the same spot all the way down the line. They didn't do that, so some of the posts are further back, so when they tried to reattach the fence panel to the new metal post, they couldn't get it close enough. Here are a couple of pictures of my beautiful fence. The storm we had snapped a couple of my wood posts so all I did was have him replace 7 wood posts with 7 metal posts (just reattach the fence to the metal posts). You can see where there are no bolts/screws (whatever they are called).



 
#27 ·
The damage to the wood is from how it was cut. Trees are round. When you square up a round log sometimes the corners have small bits still missing in order to optimize the log. That damage is from being the corner piece near the round edge. I can't tell for sure from the picture but it usually is only on one corner when that happens.
 
#31 ·
OP lives in Dallas Texas. I have to assume a plan, permit and inspection is required to perform structural work there.

All I’m seeing here is likely a result of skipping that process.
Was there a permit and an inspection? Is one required for this type of work in your area? Might be worth a call to the local building department, maybe someone could come out and help you with your suit? (take that under advisement)
 
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