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Old 05-17-2009, 08:41 PM   #16
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


Although this is just a simple deck edge, with no border, this is the idea on the extending posts... for lamp posts, railing posts, bench supports, etc.

And they don't have to be 4 x 4 as shown. In fact, I do corners at 5 x 5. All the outsides still line up with the edge. (Nominal measurements used here for simplicity.)

As usual, if you cannot see it well, "ZOOM" it up to 150% or 200% by using the <PAGE> feature at the upper right of your toolbar.
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Old 05-17-2009, 09:02 PM   #17
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


Hanging the deck through a ledger and attaching with lag screws? - Not legal or sensible in most areas, but some areas will permit it.

Is that really short counter flashing? How do you seal around the screws when the wood shrinks or you do the silcone and washer routine?

I love to see these because I get work out of the moisture related failures.
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Old 05-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #18
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


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Hanging the deck through a ledger and attaching with lag screws? - Not legal or sensible in most areas, but some areas will permit it.

Is that really short counter flashing? How do you seal around the screws when the wood shrinks or you do the silcone and washer routine?

I love to see these because I get work out of the moisture related failures.

Who are you asking? Mine isnt attached to the house.
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Old 05-17-2009, 09:16 PM   #19
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


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Who are you asking? Mine isnt attached to the house.
Nor are mine. That picture is from the University of California website... it's the only one I had that showed using flashing over the ledger. (I get tired of always drawing up something ) And since ledgers are being used here, it sure ain't gonna hurt to flash them.

I don't even do that. If I use an exposed ledger, it's on standoffs to let the water flow on by between the pieces of lumber.

The previously posted photo text has been edited. Please go read.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:14 AM   #20
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


I see Willie. When I think ledger, I think a plate bolted to the house that joists hang from. I see that my ripped 2x4 is technically a ledger. I have 3" deck screws in that ledger at several random locations along its length AS WELL as another directly underneath each joist.

Also, I have 6 3" deck screws into each end of each joist holding it to that doubled beam.

There will also be blocking staggered down both sets of joists, and then more vertical support legs coming off of those.

I don't believe I need those expensive dek block things. That to me is someones marketing hype, and someone is rich off of those and I have nearly the same footprint under my posts for a fraction of the cost.

I also currently have 6 legs down in holes, and will have concrete around em and may have a few more dug before we're done bracing this thing up.

If anyone thinks it'll help, I'll go and paint on a coating of One Time Wood around the joist/beam/ledger tie in area there, but in general, I'm not worried about that rotting and going anywhere.

As far as inspectors and such. I pretty much know all of em as I work in consulting engineering. They don't have time to worry about someone building a deck on their house when they have contractors in commercial buildings to keep up with and prevent shoddy work.
(This economy especially has brought every residential "contractor" out of the woodwork, trying to pick up commercial jobs.) But in general, I'm not worried about it.

Also, you guys do know, that I am not in a frost heave area right? You can barely freeze the water in a hose pipe around here, So. Car.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:03 AM   #21
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


I was under the impression that screws do not have the shear (?) rating & that is why nails are needed? - IE foe beam connections

I won't bury wood underground, just asking for rot
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:46 AM   #22
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Holy cow! I really hate leaving negative comments, but you really have a disaster waiting to happen. You have nice skills as shown with the deck that is partially finished. The finish carpentry looks good. But it looks like the framing is "thrown together". No hangers, no bolts, no nails. Scuba Dave is correct, screws do not have a shear rating unless they are specifically designed for structural connections (ledgerlocks, GRK RSS, etc) But, it looks like you are using decking screws. These are not strong enough. Also most "cheap" deck screws will corrode in the pressure treated lumber. Please think about using a structural connector at the point loads to the post. Take a look at the "professionals" websites. Their framing and construction methods doesn't look anything like this. I can understand respecting your father construction experience, but this is your family that will be standing on this deck for years to come. Using a 2x4 screwed to the undersided beam because you didn't want to spend the money on some z-max joist hangers, come on. It will be sooooo much easier and less expensive to do it right the first time.

I am truly not saying this to be personal against you. I have done enough of my own screwups and learning experiences. The first time i finished a basement was a disaster. I had experience with deck construction and it didn't translate into interior stuff. Take some of the advice that people are throwing at you. You asked for the advice. It's how we all learn.

Keep the pictures coming. Based on your finishing skills and creativity, I bet the finished product will look great. Are you planning on lighting?
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:38 AM   #23
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


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Originally Posted by Rhizzlebop View Post
As far as inspectors and such. I pretty much know all of em as I work in consulting engineering. They don't have time to worry about someone building a deck on their house when they have contractors in commercial buildings to keep up with and prevent shoddy work.
A bit of advice: You know you can lose your engineering license if you knowingly participate in an un-permitted construction project?

You mentioned the inspectors trying to keep up with shoddy work. From an engineer's perspective, I'm not sure I see what the difference is between what you say the inspectors are trying to keep up with, and what you're doing to your profession.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:17 AM   #24
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhizzlebop View Post
I see Willie. When I think ledger, I think a plate bolted to the house that joists hang from. I see that my ripped 2x4 is technically a ledger. I have 3" deck screws in that ledger at several random locations along its length AS WELL as another directly underneath each joist.

Also, I have 6 3" deck screws into each end of each joist holding it to that doubled beam.

There will also be blocking staggered down both sets of joists, and then more vertical support legs coming off of those.

I don't believe I need those expensive dek block things. That to me is someones marketing hype, and someone is rich off of those and I have nearly the same footprint under my posts for a fraction of the cost.

I also currently have 6 legs down in holes, and will have concrete around em and may have a few more dug before we're done bracing this thing up.

If anyone thinks it'll help, I'll go and paint on a coating of One Time Wood around the joist/beam/ledger tie in area there, but in general, I'm not worried about that rotting and going anywhere.

As far as inspectors and such. I pretty much know all of em as I work in consulting engineering. They don't have time to worry about someone building a deck on their house when they have contractors in commercial buildings to keep up with and prevent shoddy work.
(This economy especially has brought every residential "contractor" out of the woodwork, trying to pick up commercial jobs.) But in general, I'm not worried about it.

Also, you guys do know, that I am not in a frost heave area right? You can barely freeze the water in a hose pipe around here, So. Car.
To be honest with you, drawing from decades of construction work, I have very little concern about the strength of most of your connectors. After all, our fathers and grandfathers built lasting structures with many of the same basic, sound construction techniques for generations long before any of these required connectors came along. Some still remain standing around here after hurricanes have blown down many of the adjacent structures "safeguarded" by thousands of dollars worth of Simpson stamped steel.

But the positive aspects that I see of these new fastening innovations is that they provide a simple substitute for understanding and utilizing those time-proven techniques. So the use of inferior lumber today, and the smaller nominal lumber sizes, and the thinner, shorter nails in use today... not to mention the horrible abuses of good construction fastening techniques brought on by the wide-spread use of nail guns... can often be somewhat offset by incorporating many of these aggravating metal fasteners.

Let's face it, for the most part, few of us are the same quality carpenters that built the sailing ships of yesteryear. What we call a carpenter on most construction jobs today, would have only been an apprentice or a helper on jobs of a hundred years ago.

Because of all this, despite the good nails you guys have driven, and the tight cuts, it is more than advisable to just spend another $200 on the deck and add some modern insurance.

Having said all that............. Just like many other people on this forum, much of my work is repairing and replacing some fairly good quality work done by guys like your father (and ME before I began seeing the eventual results of my actions) because of little more than plain old ROT.

Water feeds all life on this planet. And mold, which creates rot, is a life form. Unknowingly we constantly provide water traps in much of our construction. Those wet, soggy traps are an invitation to mold to move right in and start eating our house. Anything at all we can do to eliminate or separate our construction materials from a fresh water source (salt water is really not conducive to rot proliferation) is nothing but a big PLUS in the hopeful longevity of our building.

Your suggestion of painting the surfaces is a step in the right direction. However, the rain water pretty much sheds off exposed surfaces, and the wood dries out in a few days Dry wood does not rot. (The term"dry-rot" is a misnomer coined way back in old England because people thought the mold they were looking at "looked" dry.) Where the eventual damage will occur - and it WILL - is the area behind the ledger board where the wood never gets a chance to dry out except in the driest part of the year.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:16 PM   #25
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


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That small covered section in the pic has about 40 support pts touching the ground. Its very sturdy with minimal spans. This will be the same when we finish.
Hey Rhizzle, I like the design you have come up with. It will look fantastic.

However, I am a little concerned and am trying to provide some constructive criticism (Hey guys, you like that pun).

I am no expert and not a mechanical engineer, but isn't the fact that you need 40 supports points touching the ground for such a small area is because something is lacking structurally? And how many of those 40 support points have wood in direct contact with the ground?


Rhizzle, I can see that you are caught between a rock and a hard place. You can't very well go back to your dad and say, Not good enough, we have to rebuild. On the other hand I think you know the advice you were given by the experts here (again I am not an expert) is valuable and 99% of the time is the correct way to do things. This is their livelihood. They do this day in and day out.

Personally I don't see why they waste their time trying to instruct DIYers who don't care about doing things the right way.

Edit: I just noted that you don't plan on being in this house more than 7 years. That explains a lot.

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Old 05-19-2009, 03:04 PM   #26
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Hey Rhizzle, I like the design you have come up with. It will look fantastic......

......I am no expert and not a mechanical engineer, but isn't the fact that you need 40 supports points touching the ground for such a small area is because something is lacking structurally? And how many of those 40 support points have wood in direct contact with the ground?


Rhizzle, I can see that you are caught between a rock and a hard place. You can't very well go back to your dad and say, Not good enough, we have to rebuild. On the other hand I think you know the advice you were given by the experts here (again I am not an expert) is valuable and 99% of the time is the correct way to do things. This is their livelihood. They do this day in and day out.

Personally I don't see why they waste their time trying to instruct DIYers who don't care about doing things the right way.

Edit: I just noted that you don't plan on being in this house more than 7 years. That explains a lot.
drtbk4ever, to be honest, I'm not 100% certain if you're writing to me with a heloful tone, or one of cynicism , so, I will choose to take it as helpful, and say thank you.

You are pretty much on the right track with most of your comments. I am stuck between knowing a "better" way, and a "proven" way (aka dad).

He's built more than most here have thought of building.

To your question about the other deck with 40 pts. It has 40, because I kept pushing to have more. He said it didn't need them. None are touching the ground. They are all on blocks.

Nails may have a stronger sheer strength, but it could be one of those things of of where, its either, twice as strong as it needs t0 be, or 3 times as strong. Which is "strong enough"? Probably both.

I personally feel a lot better about screws with threads holding it together than nails that can and DO pull out.

I am actually going to extra expense just to screw it all together because nails are cheaper. These DIY shows use 2.5" deck screws. I and dad disagree. We are using 3" because it gives more to bite into.

When I've tied a joist in with 6 screws, I've spread that stress out from the bottom to the top of that joist, and they are angled in so that the stress goes across the width of the grain.

Also, the timeline is part of this. If I were building this deck for the next 40 years, maybe I'd build a LITTLE DIFFERENTLY (MAYBE). However, the owner after me probably wont maintain it, or wont even like it. On my, <10yr outlook, it'll be fine I'm confident.

As far as me asking for suggestions and then questioning them. I did ask for them. I got them. I also was hoping to get use/asthetics/functionality ideas and suggestions but really only one guy has chimed in with some of those thus far. Hopefully more will as I take all suggestions to heart and I place a value on them and then decide whether to act on them or not.

Also, I think it was Willie who was spot on when he said that a lot of the "new technology" or "right way" is to dummy proof things. IE, its harder for someone to screw up a hanger. But, it takes a craftsman to build it from scratch. The entire time we've been working on this, dad has been commenting at how I could drive a truck across this thing and it wouldn't move. I've really enjoyed me and him getting to do this together as he's almost to the age that he can't do this at all anymore, and I'd be hard pressed to tell him he's wrong on the structure.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:06 PM   #27
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


Also, thank you for the kind words on the finish of that first section. I'm very proud of its appearance as well.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:12 PM   #28
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Building a new deck......suggestions? thoughts?


bbudlong, I do need some lighting, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

The current location of the gazebo has power run to it. It has a fan that's switched inside the gazebo, so it's just live power out there, not a switched leg. This is good and bad. I have to dig up the end of that run, and reroute/add to it, and run it to the new gazebo location. I can takeoff along the way and drop a couple junction boxes for exterior deck lighting, of some kind (suggestions?)

I can also drop a couple exterior outlets for running landscaping lighting off a transformer, or for any power I need outside there, like the projector and stereo receiver for outdoor movies.

I wish I had a switched leg out there too from the house that I could turn exterior lights on and off from inside, but I don't right now. Maybe you have an idea? Route a switch leg back to an exterior switch near the door to the sunroon, exterior mounted? Not sure.

I wasn't planning on any railings, only perimeter benches, so I guess I can't do rail post cap lights.

I saw one deck that had strips under the benches.

I need controllable light to make outdoor activities work, but yet not glare on the projected screen. Ideas?
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:06 PM   #29
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I want to thank everyone for their comments and ideas. I hope I did not seem to belittle or discount anyone constructive criticism as I know it is all well intended.
Thank you
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:44 PM   #30
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Hey Rhizzle,

Be sure to post more photos when the project is complete.

I too think the under bench lighting would look great.

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