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Old 07-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #1
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Beam supports


Hi all,

Have a question about proper way to build support columns for beams. I'm working on a set of plans that will go to a structural engineer for review. The answer to this question defines how I'm going to design the roof, so I want to get this part right now so I don't have to redo them later.

Attached is an image of a few different ways I can think of making the supports and would like to know which are acceptable ways of retro-fitting these supports into an existing structure.

A - Support beam rests on top of the existing wall plates. 6x6 support column goes from bottom of top plates, to the floor plate, 6x6 column added in the floor joist opening, and a 6x6 column added in the cripple wall.

B - support beam rests on top of the existing wall plate. single 6x6 support column goes from bottom of wall plates down to mud sill. Openings cut into the in-between plates and subfloor.

C - 3x support column pieces like A, except that the beam sits directly on top of the top support column (top plates cut away).

D - single support column like B, except that beam sits directly on top of the support column (top plates cut away).


Which is permissible, and what kind of simpson stongties would be needed? Or do I need to do something else entirely?

Thanks!

-rev
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:42 PM   #2
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Beam supports


Hi revlis, I am not now trying to be hard on you but it should be the engineer's job to design a solution for you, not you and some help on the internet.

This is what an engineer or other design professional is supposed to do for you and why they get paid.

I have heard of but never actually seen or been involved in any structural situation wherein a client has designed a structural solution then had a licensed professional engineer "sign off on it".

I think that is like believing in ghosts or vampires, lots of people have said they have seen one but it is just not credible.

No design professional that desires to keep his license or reputation will do this.

Andy.

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Old 07-07-2012, 08:57 PM   #3
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Beam supports


Quote:
Originally Posted by revlis_dyi View Post
Hi all,

Have a question about proper way to build support columns for beams. I'm working on a set of plans that will go to a structural engineer for review. The answer to this question defines how I'm going to design the roof, so I want to get this part right now so I don't have to redo them later.

Attached is an image of a few different ways I can think of making the supports and would like to know which are acceptable ways of retro-fitting these supports into an existing structure.

A - Support beam rests on top of the existing wall plates. 6x6 support column goes from bottom of top plates, to the floor plate, 6x6 column added in the floor joist opening, and a 6x6 column added in the cripple wall.

B - support beam rests on top of the existing wall plate. single 6x6 support column goes from bottom of wall plates down to mud sill. Openings cut into the in-between plates and subfloor.

C - 3x support column pieces like A, except that the beam sits directly on top of the top support column (top plates cut away).

D - single support column like B, except that beam sits directly on top of the support column (top plates cut away).


Which is permissible, and what kind of simpson stongties would be needed? Or do I need to do something else entirely?

Thanks!

-rev
Beam posts in your situation go in just like studs from shoe to the bottom of the top plate. They don't have to go to the mudsill. We put solid blocking in between the joists . The posts are already sitting on the box/rim joist. The solid blocking gives the posts full bearing. Your area might be different. Let the engineer tell you.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #4
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Beam supports


thanks for the replies.

Joe - i figured as much, that's what I'll put into my design then.

Andy - Won't be asking the architect to sign off on these, I'm just providing a basic blue print for him to make his own from. But there are some particular aesthetic difficulties with this build that I'm trying to plan around now.

The answer to how the beam supports should work greatly impacts the placement of windows, the height of the ceiling, the overall height of the structure, etc. Depending on some of these variables, my wife either wants a vaulted ceiling or not, wants bay windows or not, wants a second floor balcony or not. So it behooves me to find out now early in the planning stage what the limitations due to how the beams & supports have to be built so I can deliver basic plans to our architect that will need (hopefully) only minor adjustments, and not have to have him make several different designs based of if x than a, if y then b, etc.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:02 AM   #5
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Beam supports


revlis,

I'm sure your engineer will check it, but you need to make sure that there is enough blocking (to create more support area) under the columns to prevent crushing of the sill plate (mud sill). Too many pounds per square inch will cause the wood fibers to compress and cause crushing of the plate, which in turn will cause your column to sink into the plate. The required area of support is based upon the species and grade of wood used for the mud sill, and the load being carried to the foundation.

Good luck!
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revlis_dyi View Post
thanks for the replies.

Joe - i figured as much, that's what I'll put into my design then.

Andy - Won't be asking the architect to sign off on these, I'm just providing a basic blue print for him to make his own from. But there are some particular aesthetic difficulties with this build that I'm trying to plan around now.

The answer to how the beam supports should work greatly impacts the placement of windows, the height of the ceiling, the overall height of the structure, etc. Depending on some of these variables, my wife either wants a vaulted ceiling or not, wants bay windows or not, wants a second floor balcony or not. So it behooves me to find out now early in the planning stage what the limitations due to how the beams & supports have to be built so I can deliver basic plans to our architect that will need (hopefully) only minor adjustments, and not have to have him make several different designs based of if x than a, if y then b, etc.

You are still asking for structural design advice from an internet forum. This should and many other factors all be taken into account by your design professional, be he a licensed engineer or a person that can do your design based on prescriptive measures found in your applicable code and approved by your local Department of Building and Safety (or it's equivalent).

I believe that you are wasting your time trying to come up with a design on your own that will meet applicable codes for your area.
I would suggest that you work on the over-all architectural design (how it looks, placement of windows, etc.) then let the professional take over the task of designing the structural elements.
Or start talking to a design professional, let him know the basics of what you would like to so and work with him/her as you are contemplating ideas.

Andy.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:19 AM   #7
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Beam supports


This is pretty straight forward. I did something very similar. Joe got it right. Just make sure you follow the load all the way to the foundation. 'A' looks correct
From what you mentioned in post 4, you may want to look at your end state and design your load paths to make it work.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:30 AM   #8
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Or start talking to a design professional

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Old 07-08-2012, 09:59 AM   #9
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Beam supports


without more overall building design layout info it is hard to say for your situation. you can design the layout ideas but in the end it will be up to the engineer 100% to provide the point loads for all beams and structure within your layout design. from your diagram and how the beam sits it looks like you will probably need something like 6 ganged up 2x6 studs underneath the beam to transfer the beam load path.

edit.. also, keeping all plates top and bottom in one piece and filling in between them with studs is the ideal way to build...

Last edited by hand drive; 07-08-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:01 AM   #10
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Beam supports


Option A is the only way to go. Just so I'm sure? Are the "beams" you label 6 x 18 your roof rafters? How far apart are you spacing them? How far are you spanning them? Just trying to figure out why you have such a large piece of lumber for a roof. Unless I just don't understand what you are trying to do. You most definitely don't want to be cutting rim joists, or any top plates. The top plates lock all of your studs together, you cut that and then you will be losing integrity of the wall. How far apart are your wall studs? Not so sure why these guys are being so hard on you, if you are just trying to draw a preliminary sketch for an engineer to review and make changes as necessary.

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