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Bathroom tile question

12K views 66 replies 12 participants last post by  Bud Cline 
#1 ·
I hired a local handy man recommended by a colleague of mine to install a new bathroom. He claims to be a laid off and insured, licence plumber. Anyhow, this bathroom replaces a previous smaller bathroom and closet. The bathroom and closet had once shared an interior wall that has been taken down. At the far end of the room will be installed a two person shower with 2x2 ceramic tile floor and 18x18 travertine tile cut into 9x18 rectangles for the wall. There is a 14 inch deep bench along one of the three shower walls. The fourth wall facing the bathroom is glass and it includes a hinged door.

At the start of this project the contractor presented me a list of materials which I arranged for. Everything was delivered and he was to complete the project over a two weeks time period while I and my fiance were away on vacation. I returned from vacation to find him barely half finished... okay, maybe it's more like a quarter finished. Yes, I'm frustrated with the delays and his excuses, but I can deal with that. My question for you... how concerned should I be that cement board or no other tile backerboard was used on the shower walls? When I originally discussed this project with our contractor he explained that cement board would be used on the shower floor and walls. Instead, he has only used cement board on the floor - in fact, the entire bathroom floor (not just the shower).

I've also noticed that he's used no rubber water barrier under the shower floor. It seems he's only used cement board.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
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#2 ·
What do you mean he is just using a piece of backer board for the shower floor? Has he framed in a shower pan but then just laid cement backer board right over top of the sub floor? There is a definite art to building a custom shower pan. You cannot just throw down backer board and then tile on top of it.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Hi Justin,

Thank you for responding... it seems he has screwed two two by fours together with a peice of plywood between them and it is with this that he has created a threshold onto the cement board which is covering the floor. I believe he intends to tile over this using the travertine. The 2x2 ceremic tiles have already been laid onto the floor of the shower and directly onto the cement board.

I should be pretty worried, huh? Do I need to confront this guy and challenge his process? Do I need to ditch him altogether? Do I need to relax and just let him do his work and trust this process?
 
#4 ·
Wow, yeah there definately is an art to building the shower pan floor. My guy put the rubber lining down and then filled that with, I think it was concrete and then tiled over that from what I can remember. But I would definately use it on the walls too. Might want to reconsider this guy because you definately do not want a mold/mildew issue if it is not sealed correctly. Another tip--did you consider using the mildew resistant grout. The name slips my mind right now(ask your local tile shop). It is a little more expensive, but you may want to consider it. Some guys dont like using it because it is a little harder to apply.
 
#5 ·
I should be pretty worried, huh? Do I need to confront this guy and challenge his process? Do I need to ditch him altogether? Do I need to relax and just let him do his work and trust this process?

Be very worried! If I am drawing the correct conclusion here then I dont know how he would keep it from leaking long enough to get paid! Take a few pics and post them up here so we can take a look.
 
#6 ·
You HAVE to use a membrane of some sort on your floor and it should lap up on the walls several inches in order for the pan not to leak. Grout is NOT waterproof and cement board is porous so water WILL get through. Tile backer/cement board MUST be used on the walls for the same reason. If it's just drywall under the tile, it's only a matter of time before it gets wet enough to deteriorate and your tile WILL fall off. I'm not a tile expert, but I've been in the trades long enough to have a grasp of basic tile installation....
 
#8 ·
Hi Dave,

It was not my intention to start a whole seperate question. Rather, I was looking to direct people who may otherwise only hang out in one form space to check out my initial question. I was concerned I may not have placed it into the proper area. Anyhow, thank you for your involvement. I appreciate being able to get feedback on your website.
 
#10 ·
You should cut your losses and limit this contractor's involvement to plumbing. Everything you've described about how this has been done is not only less than desirable, it is fundamentally wrong and substandard.

No matter what system is used to manage the moisture, a pre-made or "mud" (sort of like concrete) pan must be used for the shower floor. NEVER wood. Backerboard has no place in a shower floor, period. Backerboard (or specialty gypsum based panels that are now gaining in popularity) should be used on the walls, with the one exception being if you're using Kerdi, an expensive woven membrane that won't let water wick through. The seams of the backerboard must be taped with fiberglass mesh tape and mudded with thinset or you're guaranteed that the grout will crack.

Time to lose this guy and learn to do your own tile. Or hire a professional tile installer. Otherwise you'll enjoy your new shower for a year or two until it falls apart and rots the structure of the home in the process.
 
#11 ·
Thank you all for responding. thekctermite, I talked with the contractor about the shower floor membrain and he cites using a product called redguard. I searched for it online and found this link:
http://www.shop.com/+-a-Redgard-p54938444-g1-k24-st.shtml

Of course, I hear all that's been said about the shower walls, but would this be an appropriate barrier for the shower floor? He described having used it on top of the cement board and before laying the tile.
 
#13 ·
There is more than one way to build a proper shower receptor these days but the use of cement board in the floor IS NOT a part of any of the methods.

Redgard is a good waterproofing product and the company claims it is suitable for this use, however there are other issues with actually using Redgard for this purpose. I wouldn't allow him to continue at this point. He obviously doesn't know enough about what he is doing and he is taking a path of least resistance approach.

What is below this shower? Is it a basement or a crawl space? I hope this shower isn't on the second floor.:) Are your homeowners insurance premiums paid up to date?
 
#14 ·
Did you verify his license and insurance? At the contract signing you should have received a certificate of insurance. Secondly there is a difference between a plumbing certificate (trade license) and a contractors license. If he is insured as a plumber and working as an HIC contractor his insurance will not cover him. You need a membrane on the floor-period. The membrane should extend at least 6" up the wall.

My advice to you is to terminate your contract with this guy. He doesn't know what he is doing and its doubtful he is what he says he is. There are a lot of guys out there pretending to be things they are not, craigslist is full of them. Two weeks is more than enough time to complete this job, get someone in there who knows what they are doing.
 
#15 ·
This shower is on the second floor and in the corner of the structure. It is directly above a half bathroom. The home was built in 1980 and we have owned it since April. Insurance premiums are all paid up. License and insurance was not verified. There is no signed contract or certificate of insurance. There is a written estimate of work that articulates the goals but that does not detail the process. There is a basic drawing which accompanies the estimate.
 
#16 ·
I must be missing something here. In several jurisdictions here we actually have a liner and drain inspection. The liner must slope to the drain. The liner must go up the wall (behind the wall board) 10". The liner must hold water (while the inspector is on-site). The liner must drain to the drain's weep holes when the plug is partially pulled. I don't think Redgard can meet any of the requirements (i.e. how is he creating a slope to the drain with wall board and Redgard?)

Redgard is appropriate for the shower bench and the joint between the bench and the wall but I cannot invision using it as a pan liner!
 
#17 ·
I don't know where you are located but here it is illegal to perform services, repairs, or upgrades on real property owned without some kind of signed written agreement describing the work, obligations, and rights of both parties. The contract also must have the license number of the contractor and physical contact information. Legally you are just as responsible as he is. Some states do allow verbal contracts and if you can prove them they may be binding. However the work must still be performed in a workmanlike manner and free from defect (it's not), and must be performed by someone licensed to do so.

Again I would advise you to get rid of him and get somebody in there who knows what they are doing. The longer you wait the more money you are throwing away.
 
#18 ·
Agreed, Redguard is great for walls but it is not for floors EVER.

Some jurisdictions require inspections of the drain pan system, some do not. The residential code doesn't really deal with it, so in my experience most in this area jurisdictions do not. You'd have to check to see if your municipality requires pan inspections. Since you're doing plumbing work a permit would be required by code anyway...

Aumanpj, not to be critical (so please don't take it that way)...But you're learning a valuable lesson about how not to hire contractors. Check references, VERIFY insurance with the carrier by calling them, require permits, get a written contract with a total price and materials/procedures and don't pay up front.

If this guy had any idea what he is doing, he wouldn't be suggesting Redguard for the floor or building it the way he is. Wonder what else he's done wrong? Sounds like the kind of guy that hangs shower tile with mastic to me! :whistling2:
 
#19 · (Edited)
Redgard can not be attached to a typical shower floor drain. A guaranteed seal of the two elements is impossible. There is a method prescribed for such an installation but the truth is the method is in question and this guy isn't doing that anyway from what I can see so far.

The two acceptable methods from jurisdiction to jurisdiction is either a vinyl pan liner of 30-40mils thickness used in conjunction with a clamping-style shower floor drain, or, a vinyl sheet product named KERDI that requires the use of their own specially designed floor drain.

In the first case two concrete floors are cast-in-place. The first is a pre-slope to which the pan liner is applied and then a second cast to create the final slope.

With the KERDI method, a single cast of concrete is required and the special KERDI Drain is cast into this sloping concrete. The KERDI membrane is then attached to the surface and over the drain creating a watertight floor application.

THERE IS NO WAY a guy can use cement board and paint it with any liquid waterproofing membrane product such as Redgard and create a waterproof shower receptor. It doesn't work like that. Seasonal atmospheric changes would be enough to move some joints around and breach the waterproofing.

If this is on the second floor of your home - STOP THIS GUY IMMEDIATELY.

You are in big trouble.:)
 
#20 ·
I'm going to bow out of this thread for now. My expertise is not in getting out of agreements. I have dismissed several subcontractors from our job sites and it usually goes like this:

Me: "Pack-up and get off the site!"

Sub: "I'm going to bill you for the time I have invested!"

Me: "That's OK! But recognize that billing me and getting paid are two separate issues!"

Good Luck!

I'll watch the thread from a far to see how it comes out.

Paul

P.S. Does anyone know how do I get a signature line?
 
#21 ·
Now there's a surprise. Will you allow the guy to continue?

Simply ask him which standard he is following to make this installation. If he can't show you something along these lines from the Tile Council of North America, the American National Standards Institute, the Uniform Plumbing Code, the Uniform Building Code, then he has no leg to stand on and shouldn't expect to be paid for his malpractice.

If he is correct in his procedures and it is you that is misunderstanding what is being done and misinterpreting his endeavor then that is understandable and we can all stand down.

Without your input this thread likely won't go on much longer.:)
 
#22 ·
Hello Bud,

I'm sorry, I don't understand your statement, "Without your input this thread likely won't go on much longer." What input do you need or did you request? I'm sorry if I missed it.

I'm not yet sure what I will do in this circumstance. This person came very highly recommended and I'm shocked, dealing with a lot of new information, and processing options forward. I'm also not the only decision-maker in this situation. I am negotiating with my fiancee.

I have paid this person quite a bit of money up front and he still has to make delivery on some pretty expensive materials. If I fire him the job will likely have to stand still for many, many months until further financing can be established. I don't know what someone would charge me to come in and fix all this but I'm guessing it would be more expensive to fix than to do correctly from the get go.

This contractor says he's done 74/77 bathroom remodels with tile work and that he's pretty well followed the same model each time. Having come so highly recommended... I'm torn.

I sure do appreciate everyone's input on this. It does help and I thank you. As a decision comes to bare I will surely debrief in the thread.
 
#23 ·
Here is a simple solution for you. Hire a general contractor to manage the job for you. This will add approximately 10% to the cost of your project. Let your your current contractor know work will stop until you do so. Then let him know he will be dealing directly with the G.C. from that point on. Once he realizes he is going to get called on everything, he'll either start doing the job correctly or want to negotiate a way out for himself.
 
#26 ·
I have stopped work on the bathroom. I have requested the contractor complete finishing touches on our closet and window installation. He has Friday, Saturday and Sunday off but we will have a face-to-face discussion on Sunday night or Monday morning (as of yet undecided). I am now in search of someone to come and do this correctly.

Does anyone know of a publication that details the basic step by step process of custom tile shower install? Perhaps there is something published by the Tile Council of North America or the American National Standards Institute? It might be good for me to have the official publication in hand when I have this face-to-face with my contractor.
 
#28 ·
You can find information from the following resources:

2001 handbook for ceramic tile installation (Tile Council of America) (www.bnibooks.com)
American National Standards Institute (ANSI)(www.bnibooks.com)
Residential Construction Performance Guidelines (www.bnibooks.com)
The project resource manual (www.bnibooks.com)
Means Residential and Light Commercial Construction Standards ( Available at Home Depot/ Lowes/ Borders)
 
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