Attaching Porch Shed Roof To Brick Veneer - Building & Construction - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2009, 07:28 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


hello, just about to start building a screened in porch roof over and existing deck..The roof will be a 4/12 pitch shed roof coming straight off the back of the home and over the deck area.

The biggest challenge is attaching the structure (Ridge Board) to the back of the house (Brick). Has anyone dealt with this before? Typically, if this is siding, you simply remove the siding, flash, and attached the Ridge board directly to your studs..But we are dealing with 3 story of Brick

We had an engineer come out today. Basically we agree to leave the brick alone and attach it with 5/8" bolts through the brick. Using Bolts like you would a deck ban board. Upstairs on the outside wall, we are going to remove the Sheetrock under the upstairs window sills and put 2 x 10 blocking between the studs...and if we can access between the brick and sheathing,we will add some blocks, so that the bolts upon tightening up will not stress the veneer. (hope this makes sense)

Anybody dealt with this before, and if so, things you learned? Thank you

Steve
NC

Advertisement

ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:12 AM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 3,118
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Yes, you do not want to attach the ledger to the brick, but thru the brick into the house framing. You will need a permit for this, for which you need detailed drawings for fastening the ledger. They will rule on those drawings.

Advertisement

Just Bill is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:37 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


so you agree that the blocking in between studs and bolts thru the wall is the proper method here? I don't see a better way.. You have to cut the sheetrock from inside, so you can add blocking, fasten and see the bolts for inspection etc

Leave the brick along right? Your getting into brick lentil and everything else if we open up the brick wall...

Then counter flash the roof, by saw cutting into the brick/mortar

Yes, we are getting permits, drawings, engineer letters etc..

Just never done an add on project thru brick, I am still slightly nervous about it..

It's not my house and it's a 700k house! Can't let anything go wrong
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:42 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Plant City, Florida
Posts: 46
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexTiger View Post
hello, just about to start building a screened in porch roof over and existing deck..The roof will be a 4/12 pitch shed roof coming straight off the back of the home and over the deck area.

The biggest challenge is attaching the structure (Ridge Board) to the back of the house (Brick). Has anyone dealt with this before? Typically, if this is siding, you simply remove the siding, flash, and attached the Ridge board directly to your studs..But we are dealing with 3 story of Brick

We had an engineer come out today. Basically we agree to leave the brick alone and attach it with 5/8" bolts through the brick. Using Bolts like you would a deck ban board. Upstairs on the outside wall, we are going to remove the Sheetrock under the upstairs window sills and put 2 x 10 blocking between the studs...and if we can access between the brick and sheathing,we will add some blocks, so that the bolts upon tightening up will not stress the veneer. (hope this makes sense)

Anybody dealt with this before, and if so, things you learned? Thank you

Steve
NC
The brick needs to be removed, was this "Engineer" a P.E.?

If you install this roof improperly, when it comes down, not if it comes down, it may kill or seriously hurt someone.

You should hire a competent licensed contractor for this job as you are definately way over your head.
bwalley is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:50 AM   #5
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Althought I am not licenced, I have been a home builder(for a large corportation) for a number of years and have done renovations for years on my own, as "owner" of numerous properties. I flip properties professionally for last 6 years. So I take offense you say I am over my head. I have almost 20 years experience. Now, I come here to seek advise.. I am not a weekend warrior. I have never had a situation like this one, ok?

I am not doing this work, I am over seeing the project. as GC. I have the trust of the people on this project.

#2 this apparently isn't done often in NC because 95% of the houses are siding, which is cake walk compared to dealing with this brick that is 3 stories high..

Cutting the brick 20 feet up the wall, which would need to be 21 feet wide and no less than 1.5' down is a huge removal of brick right in the middle of the house in order to place the ridge board directly to the framing like you would preferred to do. Ok, so you risk loosing all the brick above you doing this..Just not an easy solution

Messing with the brick is not a great option..

And yes this Engineer has PE,

Last edited by ApexTiger; 02-10-2009 at 09:03 AM.
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 08:54 AM   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Additionally, my only concern is cracking the brick...It will be impossible for roof to fall if you comprehend how we are bolting the Ridge board thru the brick into blocking secured into the framing of the house.. Impossible!

I just don't want to stress the veneer
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:20 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Plant City, Florida
Posts: 46
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexTiger View Post
Althought I am not licenced, I have been a home builder(for a large corportation) for a number of years and have done renovations for years on my own, as "owner" of numerous properties. I flip properties professionally for last 6 years. So I take offense you say I am over my head. I have almost 20 years experience. Now, I come here to seek advise.. I am not a weekend warrior. I have never had a situation like this one, ok?

I am not doing this work, I am over seeing the project. as GC. I have the trust of the people on this project.

#2 this apparently isn't done often in NC because 95% of the houses are siding, which is cake walk compared to dealing with this brick that is 3 stories high..

Cutting the brick 20 feet up the wall, which would need to be 21 feet wide and no less than 1.5' down is a huge removal of brick right in the middle of the house in order to place the ridge board directly to the framing like you would preferred to do. Ok, so you risk loosing all the brick above you doing this..Just not an easy solution

Messing with the brick is not a great option..

And yes this Engineer has PE,
If you are not licensed how can you claim to be a professional?

If you are so good, why not get licensed?

Does your client know you don't have a license and are asking advice on how to do the job on the internet?

If you are not over your head in this project, why do you need to come on a forum and ask for advice especially after consulting an Engineer?

BTW I am a Licensed Professional Contractor, I currently have a Certified Building Contractors License and a Certified Air Conditioning Contractors License.

If you are worried about the brick cracking (as you should be) then why would you even consider bolting through it?

When it cracks and crumbles it will lose its integrity and the Brick is a veneer not a structural element.
bwalley is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:34 AM   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Ok Mr, Bwelley, your just here to flame...

Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board, but we dont' have access to the bolting unless we open the wall, nor the ban, we have to create blocking..

You obviously don't understand the situation, as I am sure I have done a poor job of explaining it.

I don't have to be a licenced contractor to renovate my own properties. I am simply going to a project for a friend. Now, I have considered doing personal renovations for other people, as flipping properties doesn't look great right now. Thus, I am considered this job and doing this more often.

Getting a licence will never supersede my experience.. It only makes the Home owner feel better, but everyone knows that has done this long enough, it doesn't mean you know what you are doing or do business ethically, etc. At some point I may decide to do so.. And yes my client knows I don't have a license.. They have seen my work, so it's not an issue of trust or crediabilty.

Getting that GC license won't suddenly make me qualified for dealing with brick relative to the scope of this project....

I just thought someone here might have some experience in a similar situation. An engineer might give you 3 or 4 options.

Like anyone with experience, you never stop learning new things, I am not coming here as a know it all, rather for some advise . Perhaps, I have choosen the wrong forum

Last edited by ApexTiger; 02-10-2009 at 09:39 AM.
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:42 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Plant City, Florida
Posts: 46
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexTiger View Post
Ok Mr, Bwelley, your just here to flame...

Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board, but we dont' access to the bolting unless we open the wall..

You obviously don't understand the situation, as I am sure I have done a poor job of explaining it.

I don't have to be a licenced contractor to renovate my own properties. I am simply going to a project for a friend. Now, I have considered doing personal renovations for other people, as flipping properties doesn't look great right now. Thus, I am considered this job and doing this more often.

Getting a licence will never supersede my experience.. It only makes the Home owner feel better, but everyone knows that has done this long enough, it doesn't mean you know what you doing or do business ethically, etc. At some point I may decide to do so.. And yes my client knows I don't have a license.. They have seen my work, so it's not an issue of trust or crediabilty.

Getting that GC license won't suddenly make me qualified for dealing with brick..

I just thought someone here might have some experience in a similar situation..
Getting licensed does not make you a better contractor, it makes you a legal contractor.

Not sure how hard it is to get licensed in NC, but I know Florida where I am licensed at is the Hardest of all 50 states to get a license in.

You said you don't need a license to work on your own house, yet you said you are working as a GC for a client on a 700K house.

Seems to me you need to be licensed for what you are doing and since yo are seeking advice on a DIY webiste, you are obviously in over your head, I hope your job does not end up seriously hurting or killing someone.

Painting and caulking a house to flip it is one thing, structural work is to be done by the professionals, just because you have watched a few TV shows, does not make you a pro.
bwalley is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 09:48 AM   #10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Bwalley,

Seriously, your just here to try rile me up instead of being helpful.

I have built from the ground up over 500 homes in my lifetime, as a superintendent, but I am in over my head on attaching a little shed roof to brick veneer. The engineer and the first poster agree with what I am doing, yet you as an HVAC contractor are telling me I might kill someone

makes a lot of sense

Thanks for being un helpful...

I am really just looking for reassurance.. from someone who actually has had a similar project. Residential construction is not rocket science..
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 10:51 AM   #11
Chicago, IL
 
Michael Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,037
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


"Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board,"

At least for deck ledgers, the 2007 supplement would require this to be an engineered system:

R502.2.2.2 Alternate deck ledger
connections. Deck ledger connections not
conforming to Table R502.2.2.1 shall be
designed in accordance with accepted engineering
practice. Girders supporting deck
joists shall not be supported on deck ledgers
or band joists. Deck ledgers shall not be
supported on stone or masonry veneer.


You are prohibited from supporting a ledger on brick veneer ("
Deck ledgers shall not be supported on stone or masonry veneer."), so you need some other method of support to the structure behind it.

The method proposed for attaching this roof ("blocking in between studs") would not comply with
R502.2.2.1 (connection to "a 2-inch nominal band joist bearing a sill or wall plate"") if it was a deck connection, it would need to be "designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice".

Which would for example include some method of preventing downwards forces being applied to the brick veneer where the supports ("and bolts thru the wall") pass thought the veneer (which would which mean the ledger was supported by the brick).

Now, this is for deck ledgers, but it does provide some practical reasons to suppose that you need to pay careful attention to your roof attachment - the ledger attachments requirements in the 2007 supplement resulted from a history of deck failures at their ledger attachment to the structure, and especially if you are an area where substantial snow loads are expected your shed roof will be experiencing loads similar to those that resulted in many of these decks collapses.

Another question to consider are zoning and other building code requirements - once you start putting a permanent roof over an existing deck you are often creating a usage which falls under different zoning requirements and always creating a structure with potentially different building code requirements, for example in terms of required foundations.

From my perspective as a home inspector I see this particular configuration - a shed roof attached to an existing structure over a deck or patio - create frequent problems for sellers; often when I see such roofs there are obvious deficiencies in the connection to the structure, always when I see one I recommend that the buyer have the seller demonstrate that the roof was properly permitted and inspected.

If the seller cannot demonstrate this, I recommend that the buyer conduct a permit search to determine if the porch was constructed in accordance with local regulations.

Quite often, it was not.

Usually the seller ends up giving the buyer a significant credit for replacement or repair, sometimes the seller finds - especially in this economy - that the building department is now looking at them as a revenue source, and imposes a fine for unpermitted construction - and at least in my area the fact that you "flip properties professionally" may incline them to cut you less slack than they would in the case of a homeowner who might be supposed to have innocently constructed such a roof in ignorance of zoning and building code requirements.

-----------------

Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-10-2009 at 11:13 AM.
Michael Thomas is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:09 AM   #12
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Thank you Micheal

All significant projects I do are permitted, approved by HOA, and inspected and engineered. My biggest concern is dealing with the brick,

concerning ledger boards, I don't like them, but they do accept them in NC, I like simpson hangers.

Perhaps we are getting termalogy confused here on the internet, but we are talking about a 2 x 10 Ridge board attached on the surface of the Brick, and bolted thru the brick and into solid framing.. Bolt size and OC" patterns will all be engineered and built per Engineer specs, loads calculations, and inspected by the city inspectors. No worries for resale here on this project for the HO. Above board, above reproach

Ledgers are in my mind are the 2 x 2 strips of treated lumber often used in place of simpson hangers.. Not talking about that here.

The ridge board or Ban board is where the 2 x 8 rafters will attach at the top of the shed roof to the back of the house (2 x 10 bolted to the veneer). Instead of pulling the brick, we are engineering a method over the veneer, thru the veneer and bolted to the house.. The orignal home builder ( 1 year ago) did the same exact thing with the deck ban...Clearly they bricked the house first, then added the deck..after the brick was complete. I didn't see any flashing, and this is why.

I am basically doing the same thing, building a shed roof after the brick was complete, but I don't have a crawl space to access the bolts, nor a house ban... so I have I have to cut the wall, get access, add blocking and then bolt it, and have all this engineered and inspected before we cover and proceed

Last edited by ApexTiger; 02-10-2009 at 11:22 AM.
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:45 PM   #13
Chicago, IL
 
Michael Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,037
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


"Ledger", to deck builders and an AHJ, usually refers a member which is attached to the structure, and to which joists are attached, usually with joist hangers, see for example fig 5 here:

buildingcodes.jocogov.org/documents/Deck%20Book.pdf,

thus the rough analogy to your "ridge board".

(I now see the source of the confusion, though, as you are referring to a "ledger" attached to a structural member, on which another members such as a joist sits - I suppose you could have a "ledger" attached to the "ledger" )

-------------------

In fact... Ha! Found a single drawing that illustrates both types of ledgers!




------------------

You've now got me curious about exactly how the IRC governs your situation, if I find an answer I'll post it here - very likely, though, yours is going to be a situation where an "engineered solution" (as you are providing) is required.

Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-10-2009 at 02:01 PM.
Michael Thomas is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 02:25 PM   #14
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Hey Micheal, thank you for the post..

yes, the code book and actual field terminology are mixed up many times. I am calling the "ledger board" in your drawing the Exterior Ban board (for a deck) or in my roof analogy the "Ridge board." Anytime we are dealing with custom rafters, the top connection is always referred to as the Ridge, I call that a Ridge board anyways...just a one sided roof in the situation.. or Shed roof as a nick name.

Ledger boards around here are code words for, "I don't want to install Hangers in holding up Joists on Decks.. Nailing patterns are accepted..but I won't do it..

Interesting enough, your drawing doesn't show the bolt going thru the Mason wall only midway. It Must be more of all Mason brick and block home or Crawl space foundation situation.

Of course what we are dealing with here is a 3" Brick Veneer, with about 2 " space cavity, then the wall Sheathing, then 2 x 4 walls, insulation, and then sheetrock as a cross reference..

As you bolt the "ledger board" to the veneer, I am concerned about the space cavity.. we need to block that as well behind the sheathing..or we could stress the brick...Certainly don't want to over tighten the bolts.

many times people think Brick is what is holding the house up, it's purely a veneer just like siding.. Therefore, I have to attach to the structure not the veneer. I realize you know this, just pointing it out for other readers.
ApexTiger is offline  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:00 PM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Plant City, Florida
Posts: 46
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexTiger View Post
Bwalley,

Seriously, your just here to try rile me up instead of being helpful.

I have built from the ground up over 500 homes in my lifetime, as a superintendent, but I am in over my head on attaching a little shed roof to brick veneer. The engineer and the first poster agree with what I am doing, yet you as an HVAC contractor are telling me I might kill someone

makes a lot of sense

Thanks for being un helpful...

I am really just looking for reassurance.. from someone who actually has had a similar project. Residential construction is not rocket science..
If you have built over 500 homes, why do you need advice on this little project?

You have to make sure the wall can support the additional weight of the rof and any load that is applied to it, a 4/12 will hold snow won't it?

BTW I am not just an HVAC Contractor I am a State Certified Building Contractor, I have been licensed longer as a Building Contractor than I have been as an HVAC Contractor, next week I take the state exam for a Certified Plumbing Contractor as well, so I would say my credentials prove I know what I am talking about.

Residential contracting is not rocket science, but it is to be done by the professionals, you are not licensed and are in over your head on this, you should let the pro's do it.

If you know so much and have so much experience, why don't you get your contractors license?

Advertisement

bwalley is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Attaching pergola to brick veneer house Mikedks Building & Construction 4 12-28-2008 01:01 PM
Shed roof screened porch Brown Dog Building & Construction 3 07-07-2008 05:27 PM
Shed type roof addition on Brick home? sandyman720 Roofing/Siding 6 04-24-2007 03:35 PM
Venting a shed roof with 2/12 slope atulc Roofing/Siding 5 08-25-2006 08:28 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts