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-   -   Attaching a deck to the patio (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/attaching-deck-patio-75541/)

DAdams982 07-06-2010 02:16 PM

Attaching a deck to the patio
 
So i am planning a new deck right now, I am going to put a ledger again my house and secure it to the rim board. Currently I have a patio out my walkout basement that is a slab. Where the patio is I will need to secure some posts for the deck. Well, I am already commited to breaking up the slab and repouring a new patio... since I want to pour some concrete for steps along side my house with a walkway and matching the 48yo patio will be difficult.

Here is my question... what are my options for footing on the deck posts. I know I can pour footings then pour the patio around the footings, but I am afraid of the builders tubes rotting away then leaving a gap for water to intrude and induce cracking. is the a way to foot the patio itself and then attack the posts to the patio?

I hope all that made sense! :D

DAdams982 07-06-2010 03:52 PM

No ideas?

Wildie 07-06-2010 08:47 PM

Where I live, we have to have footings below the frost line, then piers made by using Sono tubes.
If a slab is to be poured and supported on the piers, rebar should be used to tie the slab to the piers. Bent in an L shape.
The posts for the deck are anchored to the slab using Simpson fasteners.

http://www.qualitydist.net/sst-abu66.html

DAdams982 07-07-2010 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 466239)
Where I live, we have to have footings below the frost line, then piers made by using Sono tubes.
If a slab is to be poured and supported on the piers, rebar should be used to tie the slab to the piers. Bent in an L shape.
The posts for the deck are anchored to the slab using Simpson fasteners.

http://www.qualitydist.net/sst-abu66.html

This is exactly what I was needing. Thanks for the information.

DAdams982 07-07-2010 12:25 PM

One thing I have been looking for is the Sonotube with Sonotube base... I assume these are not sold to the a DIYer? Are there any comparables that are sold to a civilian? I have found some brands, but most are sold to only contractors.

Wildie 07-07-2010 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAdams982 (Post 466488)
One thing I have been looking for is the Sonotube with Sonotube base... I assume these are not sold to the a DIYer? Are there any comparables that are sold to a civilian? I have found some brands, but most are sold to only contractors.

I've seen these sold at Home Depot. In the same section as the Sono Tubes.

DAdams982 07-07-2010 01:30 PM

Last question for now... i bought plans from decks.com, but want to alter them to say I will be footing the patio instead of buring footings for the posts. Is there a program you all know about to build 1/4 scale projects? I also want to change the direction of the stairs. Any program you all know about would be greatly appreciated.

Wildie 07-07-2010 06:33 PM

Autocad is used and is very expensive. Has a steep learning curve also.
It would be cheaper to hire someone to lay it out, than to buy this software.
With my job, I was lucky to have a friend do mine!

HGRBS 07-08-2010 02:49 AM

Hi DAdams982,

Great....Bust up the slab! Then...maybe not.

Hey man...your patio is your footing: Level off, Pier Block, and Post. Your ledger is your primary stabilizing member. Just be certain all your posts, blocks and braces are in the correct weight-bearing positions. Lag screws and bolts for the posts, though.

DAdams982 07-08-2010 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HGRBS (Post 466789)
Hi DAdams982,

Great....Bust up the slab! Then...maybe not.

Hey man...your patio is your footing: Level off, Pier Block, and Post. Your ledger is your primary stabilizing member. Just be certain all your posts, blocks and braces are in the correct weight-bearing positions. Lag screws and bolts for the posts, though.

The slab does not reach the frost line. I thought I have to dig a footing into the frost line, then I can pour a patio over the top of that footing and attach it, making the patio load bearing. Am I incorrect? Or is there a better way to do it?

HGRBS 07-08-2010 01:52 PM

Just a Few Small Details
 
Hi DAdams982,

I guess you know that most concrete patios are 6" - 12" in depth. The only major shifting/heaving I've seen among concrete patios are from earthquakes and tree roots. Not from subterranean ice-layering/heaving.

Depending on where you are, your local authorities determine what your frost lines are; however, they can range from 33" - 5'. Just the same, I don't anticipate any major upsets building the deck on a leveled out and re-surfaced concrete patio.

However, you're the homeowner. I respect your prerogative. Just recommending a bit of time and money savings getting the same quality results.

Conceptually, whether or not your deck stretches beyond the slabs perimeter (assuming it's three sides, now), more than likely you've established its girder/center beam position:

*Now, walking from the very center of your ledger (real or proposed) to the direct center of your proposed deck, mark the ground.
*Going back to the center of the ledger, run a line to the mark at the proposed center of the deck(be certain to have something set up at that marking to tie that line to)
* From that point, continuing the stretch, run another line directly opposite that mark towards the front edge of the center of the proposed deck. Mark the spot.
*Run the line 3-5 feet beyond that point. Mark for batter board.
*Returning to the center of the proposed deck, run one line to the edge of the proposed deck to your right. Mark the spot.
*Run the line 3-5 feet beyond that point. Mark for batter board
*Repeat the process running the line to the edge of the proposed deck to your left.

You should now have from the very center of your proposed deck, lines running straight North, South, East, and West. This is your general outline for the rest of the project. Now, follow those deck building instructions you've been studying. Hopefully, you've got assistants. Pay them by the hour. My recommendation: Between $12.00-$15.00. They should have current references(30 days recent or less).

Whatever post positions there are which aren't at least a foot within the concrete slab, can be considered candidate for a footing at least 24" wide, just sightly less than the full lengths of the proposed deck, and at a frost line depth recommended by your municipality.

Any proposed deck post positions located on the concrete slab more than 12" inside, apparently looks ideal for pier block and saddle.

Your bottom line, I believe, is to build a safe, lasting, useful, effective, strong, sturdy, and attractive deck.......at minimal expense.

Go on. Tear out the entire slab if you like.....and if you can afford it. But, I've got some questions: Whose going to do the demo? How are the chunks going to be loaded? Whose gonna take it? Whose got the CAT/micro-mini bulldozer? Whose pouring the sand / gravel and doing the grading/tamping? Whose doing the re-bar? Since all the concrete for slabs has to be poured all at once within minutes, whose doing it? Is it being poured or pumped? Do the trucks have access? Whose doing the finish work?

The money you spend on all the extras entailed in tearing up the entire slab, could be used towards all your decking needs....lumber, hangers, connectors, ties, adhesives, nuts, bolts, lag screws, deck screws, galvanized ribbed nails, some small tools, and accessories, a few great quality power tools, etc... etc....

That's quite a bit more than we normally offer at once. Hopefully, there's something I've said which is very helpful towards what you choose to accomplish.

DAdams982 07-12-2010 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HGRBS (Post 466972)
Hi DAdams982,

I guess you know that most concrete patios are 6" - 12" in depth. The only major shifting/heaving I've seen among concrete patios are from earthquakes and tree roots. Not from subterranean ice-layering/heaving.

Depending on where you are, your local authorities determine what your frost lines are; however, they can range from 33" - 5'. Just the same, I don't anticipate any major upsets building the deck on a leveled out and re-surfaced concrete patio.

However, you're the homeowner. I respect your prerogative. Just recommending a bit of time and money savings getting the same quality results.

Conceptually, whether or not your deck stretches beyond the slabs perimeter (assuming it's three sides, now), more than likely you've established its girder/center beam position:

*Now, walking from the very center of your ledger (real or proposed) to the direct center of your proposed deck, mark the ground.
*Going back to the center of the ledger, run a line to the mark at the proposed center of the deck(be certain to have something set up at that marking to tie that line to)
* From that point, continuing the stretch, run another line directly opposite that mark towards the front edge of the center of the proposed deck. Mark the spot.
*Run the line 3-5 feet beyond that point. Mark for batter board.
*Returning to the center of the proposed deck, run one line to the edge of the proposed deck to your right. Mark the spot.
*Run the line 3-5 feet beyond that point. Mark for batter board
*Repeat the process running the line to the edge of the proposed deck to your left.

You should now have from the very center of your proposed deck, lines running straight North, South, East, and West. This is your general outline for the rest of the project. Now, follow those deck building instructions you've been studying. Hopefully, you've got assistants. Pay them by the hour. My recommendation: Between $12.00-$15.00. They should have current references(30 days recent or less).

Whatever post positions there are which aren't at least a foot within the concrete slab, can be considered candidate for a footing at least 24" wide, just sightly less than the full lengths of the proposed deck, and at a frost line depth recommended by your municipality.

Any proposed deck post positions located on the concrete slab more than 12" inside, apparently looks ideal for pier block and saddle.

Your bottom line, I believe, is to build a safe, lasting, useful, effective, strong, sturdy, and attractive deck.......at minimal expense.

Go on. Tear out the entire slab if you like.....and if you can afford it. But, I've got some questions: Whose going to do the demo? How are the chunks going to be loaded? Whose gonna take it? Whose got the CAT/micro-mini bulldozer? Whose pouring the sand / gravel and doing the grading/tamping? Whose doing the re-bar? Since all the concrete for slabs has to be poured all at once within minutes, whose doing it? Is it being poured or pumped? Do the trucks have access? Whose doing the finish work?

The money you spend on all the extras entailed in tearing up the entire slab, could be used towards all your decking needs....lumber, hangers, connectors, ties, adhesives, nuts, bolts, lag screws, deck screws, galvanized ribbed nails, some small tools, and accessories, a few great quality power tools, etc... etc....

That's quite a bit more than we normally offer at once. Hopefully, there's something I've said which is very helpful towards what you choose to accomplish.

The concrete work isn't of concern, my brother foremans for a large concrete contractor and has a dump truck and equipment ready for me... I have to pay the gas for the equipment... so it is all manual labor on mine and my brothers part. Of course I have to pay for the concrete, but I was going to be pouring a walkway and steps anyway.

So theoretically, if the cost of the concrete isn't a concern, do you think it is a good idea to proceed the way I was planning?

The frost line is 30 deep, so I was going to auger approx 33 or more, then sonotube it for footings.

So current plan:
Pull patio
Dig footings and pour
pour new patio and walkway
Proceed with new deck.

Your information is much appreciated.

Wildie 07-12-2010 10:50 AM

For my project, putting a roof on a concrete deck, the city building people insisted that i would require footings below the frost level.
The existing foundation was only down 24". It was a continuous, perimeter foundation.
So, wherever a post was to be located, I dug down 48" and under-mined the fouindation and poured a footing. Then, I cut a 12" Sono tube so that half of it was under the foundation and its other half came up to ground level, forming a chute.
I back-filled around the tube to keep it in position and poured the cement.

I mention this, as you could consider doing much the same, and preserve your existing patio.


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