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-   -   Attach deck ledger to house - blind (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/attach-deck-ledger-house-blind-166167/)

FatBear 12-10-2012 09:42 PM

Attach deck ledger to house - blind
 
I am tearing off some severely rotten decks - so bad I can reach into the joists and grab whole fists full of wet mush. One is a second floor deck. I can obviously get to the outside of the rim joist, but the back side of it is not accessible. I would normally through bolt the ledger to the rim joist, but I cannot do that in this case.

Can anyone suggest a viable and legal alternative or method?

Thanks.

oodssoo 12-10-2012 11:10 PM

I think there is a problem with this post... by the poster and the postee... I don't think the question is clear nor does the response by the second guy making any sense... :)

kwikfishron 12-11-2012 06:59 AM

If you’re asking “how to rebuild your second story deck without replacing the rotted framing on the house” then the answer is, NO you can’t do that.

Many times this type of damage can be repaired without tearing up the inside of the house assuming the damage is only rim deep.

Posting some pictures so we can see what you’re seeing would help.

FatBear 12-12-2012 11:44 AM

I said nothing about rotten framing in the house. I am asking how to attach new ledger boards to the existing framing in the house without having to tear apart the interior. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about this. I'm old and all this hard work leaves me really tired by the end of the day!

So far the deck ledgers I have pulled off were mostly sound, probably because they were beneath the eaves and protected from the rain. There are spots of rot just starting to develop in places where rotten joists were nailed to them. So far the wood behind the ledgers appears to be sound. I don't have all the ledgers off yet, so I can only hope that continues to be the case.

The new deck must be fire-resistant, so it will be tiled above and stucco below. Yes, of course I will build it with pressure treated wood and will ventilate it. The issue is that it will be heavier than a wood planked deck and will be rigid. Also, it is pretty high and I don't want it to fall down.

I am not confident in lag bolts alone for this, but I'm not sure what else to do. I can envision a two-pronged approach where some sort of giant toggle bolt is used to prevent the ledger from pulling away from the house and lag bolts for shear - to keep it from sliding downwards.

woodworkbykirk 12-12-2012 03:19 PM

lag bolts work just fine its long large spikes that have issues with holding. just make sure your using 1/2" x 5" minimum

AndyGump 12-12-2012 03:20 PM

Hi FatBear, this is the kind of deck project that really can not be designed by a question here and there to a forum over the internet.
Your project is certainly beyond the scope of prescriptive or conventional construction techniques.
You really do need an engineered design for this to be sure that it passes code and you can obtain permits from your local jurisdiction.
This will also save you money on the construction as it seems to me that you would not need to use pressure treated lumber if the floor joists are not in contact with the ground or are subject to weather.

Andy.

FatBear 12-12-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodworkbykirk (Post 1071879)
lag bolts work just fine its long large spikes that have issues with holding. just make sure your using 1/2" x 5" minimum

Thank you. It occurred to me that the weight of the deck will cause it to "fall" towards the house, not away from it, so the pull-out issue is not as big a deal as I thought. But I'll probably use lots of lag bolts, just in case. :-)

FatBear 12-12-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyGump (Post 1071881)
Hi FatBear, this is the kind of deck project that really can not be designed by a question here and there to a forum over the internet.

Of course not. It is simply one detail that I needed help with.
Quote:

Your project is certainly beyond the scope of prescriptive or conventional construction techniques.
You really do need an engineered design for this to be sure that it passes code and you can obtain permits from your local jurisdiction.
My best friend is a very experienced structural engineer and I have quite a bit of building experience. He helped me design the deck through phone calls and email questions and the occasional scan of a detail. Unfortunately, I did not think to ask about this and he is out of town for a couple of weeks just when I'm about to do the ledgers. He is not licensed in the state where I am currently living, so I am on my own. The county said I needed engineering, meaning a signature. I contacted an engineer who said it would cost about $12,000 to redraw and sign my plans. No, I did not misplace a zero. Before I could even gag he asked why am I getting engineering. When I said to get a building permit he asked why I was getting a building permit. My friend, the engineer had asked the same thing. "Because I always get one" is not an adequate answer for an engineer. Both recommended that I proceed without the permit and take lots of photos, then get an engineer to sign off if I am ever called on it. That is what I plan to do.

Quote:

This will also save you money on the construction as it seems to me that you would not need to use pressure treated lumber if the floor joists are not in contact with the ground or are subject to weather.
Engineering will not save me money. The whole project will cost less than the $12K engineering fee even if I overbuild it to last another 1000 years.

I was planning to use PT because I will be enclosing all wood in the deck, with just a strip of fine mesh ventilation. This is to prevent wildfire incursion into the structure. I have no choice in that. But I am not confident in the ability of tarpaper and stucco to keep out water. And I am worried about weatherproofing the joint between the house and the deck, so the PT will not rot (as quickly, anyway) if there is a leak. Trapped moisture is a big cause of rot and catastrophic failures because it is hard to detect. My friend, the engineer, agrees. Are we wrong about this?

AndyGump 12-12-2012 04:18 PM

Well, alright then.
Good luck to you on your project.

Andy.

concretemasonry 12-12-2012 04:21 PM

You did not give your location, but it takes more than tar paper to prevent water damage in a ledger attached deck. You could need proper flashing under your primary moisture barrier and good sealing of all penetrations to assure preserving what has not deteriorated. - Most siding is really not waterproof. Obviously you will need proper fasteners connectors and flashing for PT wood, but using natural more moisture resistant wood would reduce those complications.

Photos would help to give others an idea of what you are up against in addition to the location, height and size of the deck.

Dick

FatBear 12-12-2012 04:46 PM

I did one small deck (cantilevered, so did not come across the subject of this current question) and what I did was this. I peeled back the stucco on the wall above the deck. I sheathed the top of the deck with 3/4" PT plywood - using correct screws. I painted Red Guard onto the plywood and well up the side of the wall, building up a thick coat. I tiled the deck and grouted with epoxy grout. I flashed the bottom of the stucco just above the tile and caulked the gap with a polyurethane caulk. Hopefully this is adequate.

I live in the land of the lawyers, so would prefer not to give my specific location, but it is generally warm to very hot here, with cool nights so there is a lot of humidity pumped in and out of the wood. I am on a hillside above native vegetation and so my decks are high and exposed wood is prone to burning if the brush burns. We do maintain a safe perimeter and keep the weeds out of our native habitat. Contrary to popular belief, pure Chaparral does not ignite easily, it's the weeds that get it going. We have seen a rain of burning embers up to 8" long fall into our brush during a major brush fire and just smolder out because we've got rid of all the weeds.

I'm not sure what to take photos of. It's just normal frame and stucco construction. I think my original question has been answered. If my structural engineer friend gets back and disagrees, I will probably still have access to the ledgers and can make the correction at that time. I'm old and don't move all that fast. Especially up high. If there are suggestions on the flashing/weatherproofing I am all ears ... uh, eyes.

GBrackins 12-12-2012 10:16 PM

FatBear,

you may want to check out the "Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide" by the American Wood Council which is based upon the 2009 International Residential Code. This will provide you with the information and techniques needed to construct a compliant deck.

Hope this helps, Good Luck! :thumbsup:

AndyGump 12-12-2012 11:43 PM

That is a great reference but it does not cover a deck that will have tile on top and stucco on the underside of the deck.

Andy.

FatBear 12-13-2012 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyGump (Post 1072184)
That is a great reference but it does not cover a deck that will have tile on top and stucco on the underside of the deck

No, it doesn't. And no official guidelines exist that I am aware of. The plans inspector I talked to sure never suggested any. They require decks to be fireproof but give no guidelines, forcing people to either pay for engineering or DIY and cross your fingers. Fortunately I do have an engineer helping me even if he can't sign the plans.

But it does have some good illustrations of the ledger board connections and hardware which I will study and then way overbuild. Thanks!

Seattle2k 12-13-2012 12:48 PM

If you don't trust lag bolts, then open the wall/ceiling on the inside of the house and bolt it up, as you initially planned. Patching drywall is not very difficult.


Quote:

Originally Posted by FatBear (Post 1071937)
Both recommended that I proceed without the permit and take lots of photos, then get an engineer to sign off if I am ever called on it. That is what I plan to do.

:eek:

Yeah, but who has to live with the consequences? Surely not those engineers.


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