Advice On Rebuilding Driveway - Building & Construction - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-29-2012, 06:35 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 29
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


The house has a 33x48 concrete garage apron with a 17x73 asphalt driveway. Both in horrendous shape in terms of cracks, out off leveled concrete pieces and pop-outs House was built early 90's, but it appears the concrete was added some time later. I suspect the concrete was built with no base preparation.

Location Minnesota, black soil, seems to have some clay.

The driveway is used by our two cars and periodically by the propane truck refill service, which is not a trivial load, plus once in a while to bring in a landscape load of mulch or dirt.

I am looking at having it redone properly, not looking for a cheap job. I want it to last and look good for many years.

I had two bids,
1) 4" 4.500 PSI concrete 3/8" rebar unspecified OC, over 6" unspecified base.

2) 4" (or 5" optional), 4000 PSI, 3/8" rebar 24" OC, optional granite dust aggregate for pop-out avoidance. The base prep confuses me because the bid talks about 6" sand for the apron and 6" class #5 for the drive way. I need to talk to the guy about this.

Any of you kind souls in the forum have any opinions about

a) base preparation, is 6" adequate? would going to 8" help? what material, sand / crushed rock / class #5 ?

b) slab thickness and 4000/4500 PSI? Rebar ? Would 3/8 on 18" OC be overkill ?

c) concrete agregate. Any one heard of the granite dust ? I found web references to "reduced chert" aggregate, but not to the granite dust.

I will appreciate any comments

Tony

Advertisement

rdy2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 10:30 PM   #2
Member
 
concretemasonry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota - Latitude 45.057 Longitude -93.074
Posts: 3,827
Rewards Points: 2,142
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Tony -

You are apparently in MN southern or SW MN (black soil). The "class 5" specified material is a MNDOT base material that is used under roads and pavements.

In MN, granite dust is not usually common or available in most areas in concrete. Some of the crushed hard limestone is good for minimizing "pop-outs". But if are in MN, there are a lot of different sources containing rounded, glacially deposited aggregates. In some areas/pits there is a small problem with shale, but not from pits that supply for MNDOT projects.

Dick

Advertisement

concretemasonry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 12:44 PM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 29
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Dick -- Thank you for your comments.

I am along 94, about mid way between the cities and Fargo, so more like central MN. One of the bids I have has a $1300 option to add granite mix to concrete, which is just a 7% increase.
rdy2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 02:07 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sarasota,Florida
Posts: 1,633
Rewards Points: 1,164
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdy2go View Post
The house has a 33x48 concrete garage apron with a 17x73 asphalt driveway. Both in horrendous shape in terms of cracks, out off leveled concrete pieces and pop-outs House was built early 90's, but it appears the concrete was added some time later. I suspect the concrete was built with no base preparation.

Location Minnesota, black soil, seems to have some clay.

The driveway is used by our two cars and periodically by the propane truck refill service, which is not a trivial load, plus once in a while to bring in a landscape load of mulch or dirt.

I am looking at having it redone properly, not looking for a cheap job. I want it to last and look good for many years.

I had two bids,
1) 4" 4.500 PSI concrete 3/8" rebar unspecified OC, over 6" unspecified base.

2) 4" (or 5" optional), 4000 PSI, 3/8" rebar 24" OC, optional granite dust aggregate for pop-out avoidance. The base prep confuses me because the bid talks about 6" sand for the apron and 6" class #5 for the drive way. I need to talk to the guy about this.

Any of you kind souls in the forum have any opinions about

a) base preparation, is 6" adequate? would going to 8" help? what material, sand / crushed rock / class #5 ?

b) slab thickness and 4000/4500 PSI? Rebar ? Would 3/8 on 18" OC be overkill ?

c) concrete agregate. Any one heard of the granite dust ? I found web references to "reduced chert" aggregate, but not to the granite dust.

I will appreciate any comments

Tony
If you want a decent job as you say,the best route would be to have a soil test done to determine the porosity of your soil, so the size and amount of a sub base can be dertermined,at least that's the first step.
Canarywood1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 10:25 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pa
Posts: 50
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdy2go View Post
The house has a 33x48 concrete garage apron with a 17x73 asphalt driveway. and periodically by the propane truck refill service, which is not a trivial load, plus once in a while to bring in a landscape load of mulch or dirt.

I had two bids,
1) 4" 4.500 PSI concrete 3/8" rebar unspecified OC, over 6" unspecified base.

2) 4" (or 5" optional), 4000 PSI, 3/8" rebar 24" OC, optional granite dust aggregate for pop-out avoidance. The base prep confuses me because the bid talks about 6" sand for the apron and 6" class #5 for the drive way. I need to talk to the guy about this.

Any of you kind souls in the forum have any opinions about Tony
Im a GC in PA and do this for a living.. It also gets cold here. –20 F to 105 F

Fist off the asphalt is only as good as its base. In my GEO min stone base is 6” thick. That stone is 2A modified. Which means a ½” to 1+ “ stone with dust in it. The “Dusts is fine crushed limestone from the same quarry.

The right percent of dust is mixed at the quarry to the stone to make 2A MOD.. The dust mixed with the crushed stone acts like binder locking the stone (Aggregate) together.

So 6” is the code min here. I NEVER go 6 inch to run in a driveway or lane. I always use 8 to 10-inch min. to support the asphalt.

Now to the crete.

Too many times I tear up concrete driveways and the creters failure rate in is about 90% in not getting the rebar or wire centered in the poured crete. They don’t use “chairs” to sit the rebar or wire on, use bricks ect to raise the rebar and the bar/wire ends up on the bottom of the pour and many times that reinforcement becomes imprinted in between the stone and crete.

The correct way to approach the concrete is after tearing it out and what crushed stone may be there, is to run the dirt sub-grade slanted to drain off the each side of the area. This is a trick to keep the water from getting trapped in the min 4” 2B clan stone under the new crete so when that area under crete freezes water wont lift the new crete slabs so easily..

All concrete driveways or aprons should be min 6” crete air trained at 4,00 PSI with no less then a 3 slump and no more then a 5 slump. In that crete should be 6” by 6” 10 gauge wire set on chairs. Rubber expansion used not felt expansion. No more then 85 square feet without expansion joints.

I never heard of sand under crete . That holds water to freeze and lift. Even when we fry lay brick walks on 6” 2a Mod the sand on that stone is max 1” and min ¾ so it wont retain water and lift brick.
21boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 11:02 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: zentral Iowa
Posts: 1,269
Rewards Points: 624
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


No more then 85 square feet without expansion joints.

Do you mean control joints?

If not, do you pour in some sort of hop-scotch pattern to get the expansion joint in?
cleveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 08:04 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pa
Posts: 50
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
No more then 85 square feet without expansion joints.

Do you mean control joints?

If not, do you pour in some sort of hop-scotch pattern to get the expansion joint in?
The trick is where it cracks. Control joints are put in crete with a grooving tool while its wet. This helps back up the rubber Expansion joints if they cant contain all the movement. Rubber expansion joints are made of rubber or felt or as done in Florida treated lumber for exp in driveways, the old days tar exp was the common expansion joint

The physics, 4” 2b clean crushed stone under the crete helps contain the water from building up under the slabs so it doesn’t raise up when the ground freezes. The composite expansion joints helps the ‘shear” lateral movement so buckling which again cause lifting the crete.

Basic specks are, joint spacing should not exceed 24 to 30 times the pavement thickness with a maximum spacing of 15 ft. But how many times do you see a patio at 10 by 10 crack and brake… That where my 85 square feet comes into play..

Lets also remind our selves a 2 by is not 4” wide anymore. A 2 by 6 is getting to be 5 3/8 wide not 6” wide.

So I recommend no more then 85 to 100 sq feet grooved and that area us grooved then exp rubber joints after that 85 to 100 is poured. Also try to maintain 1/4 per lineal ft. in slope runoff..
21boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:16 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: zentral Iowa
Posts: 1,269
Rewards Points: 624
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


I have put in a form with some foam expansion joint on it and poured concrete to it and on past, screeded, etc., then pulled the form and left the foam behind and thrown some concrete in the void left by the 2x.

That is the only way I have found to keep the line straight, and I still have trouble with up and down on the foam. Fortunately, the foam has a 1/2" zip strip on top, so if it is high afterwards, you can take the 1/2" off and fill it with something.

Do you have a better way?

Obviously, there is the "hop-scotch pattern" way, but I think that would get old in a hurry.

Re-bar is going to be a problem.
cleveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 12:03 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pa
Posts: 50
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


I’ve been pouring crete since 1976 and even I don’t even have a clue what your talking about???

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
I have put in a form with some foam expansion joint on it and poured concrete to it and on past, screeded, etc., .
What is put in a form is concrete. Or was it you put foam ON a form?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Then pulled the form and left the foam behind .
What did the foam stick too, up against after you “pulled the form?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
and thrown some concrete in the void left by the 2x. .
Why was there a void left? And if there was, adding Crete was counter productive because now there’s no Expansion capabilities here..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
That is the only way I have found to keep the line straight, .
Keep what line straight? The “form”?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
and I still have trouble with up and down on the foam. .
What is up and Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Fortunately, the foam has a 1/2" zip strip on top, so if it is high afterwards, you can take the 1/2" off and fill it with something. .
You don’t fill concert with “Something”

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Do you have a better way? .
Whom is this question for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Obviously, there is the "hop-scotch pattern" way, but I think that would get old in a hurry. .
Why would that get old? . Creters hop skip for decades on flat crete.. That’s a given to install Expansion joints and have less truck deliveries..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Re-bar is going to be a problem.
How on earth could Rebar be a problem in concrete it made to GO in concrete
21boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:01 AM   #10
Master General ReEngineer
 
Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Chaumont River, Ny.
Posts: 3,826
Rewards Points: 2,286
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


Quote:
I am looking at having it redone properly, not looking for a cheap job. I want it to last and look good for many years.
Ayuh,.... Have it All ripped out, install a good solid 8" to 10" base, 'n Blacktop it....

3" of binder, 'n an 1" of top will last 20 years...

It'll be done in a day, 'n drive-able in 2 more...
Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:30 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: zentral Iowa
Posts: 1,269
Rewards Points: 624
Default

Advice on rebuilding driveway


21boat,

You're pretty good with the copy and paste.

We seem to have a bit of a language barrier.

I have put in a form with foam expansion joint on it and screeded to it and past it, then gone back and pulled the form and filled in the void left by the 2x with more concrete.

What this means is that I have a 2x4 form with some expansion foam alongside it. As I pour towards it, the concrete holds the foam in place against the form. I go on down the pour, then come back and screed. Then I have concrete on both sides of the form. I've found I can pull the 2x4 at that point and leave the foam behind. However, I now have an 1 1/2" gap in the concrete, so I fill this in with a shovel of concrete. The expansion joint remains relatively straight.

Up and down means vertical movement. I have to be careful because the expansion foam can move up and down.

Do you have a better way? That is a question directed towards you. It means do you have a better method of doing expansion joints?

I think the hop scotch method would get old if you were doing a long 12' wide driveway for example, and the trucks only had access via the road bed itself.

Likewise, I would think rebar going through a form and on through to the next square would pose a problem when it came time to strip the form.

Advertisement

cleveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finding underground electric wire for driveway lights. mitch21131 Electrical 25 09-24-2012 09:52 AM
How to repair a cracked driveway or walkway rfrick7@yahoo.c How To Guides 7 05-06-2012 11:43 PM
Illuminating a Driveway diydude1 Electrical 16 04-12-2012 09:24 PM
Question about convrete driveway Laser4G63 General DIY Discussions 8 02-12-2009 06:19 PM
Muddy gravel driveway Ack Landscaping & Lawn Care 3 02-10-2009 03:38 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts