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Old 01-26-2011, 06:18 AM   #31
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


As a framer for many years, I can say with confidence that sometimes things need to be cheated or deviate from the drawings to make things fit in the "real world".

I've had plans that dictate an outside dimension, which must be strictly adhered to, only to find 22" missing when I added all the interior dimensions from end to end. So, plans can be faulty, at times.

As for joist layout, as mentioned earlier. It shouldn't matter which end you pull from, because toilets and showers, etc., should always be allowed for with the layout.

In addition, the plan may call for a 36" halway, but in reality it will need to be framed at 3'1" to allow for drywall, because 36" is code for finished width.

I could go on for hours, but you get the gist. You can't always blame it on the framer.

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Old 01-26-2011, 09:28 AM   #32
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


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Originally Posted by loneframer View Post

As a framer for many years, I can say with confidence that sometimes things need to be cheated or deviate from the drawings to make things fit in the "real world".
This is absolutely true. Though, a lot of times, I've found this is because something was done incorrectly before that point so, to account for that, a deviation needs to be made.

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As for joist layout, as mentioned earlier. It shouldn't matter which end you pull from, because toilets and showers, etc., should always be allowed for with the layout.
Of course it does. If joists are placed at 16" or 24" O.C. from back to front, rather than front to back, and that front to back dimension is not evenly divisible by those O.C. placements, the joists will end up in different places than originally designed.

That means, if a builder and a plumber (in this case, me) are given the designs and I design my drainage and venting based upon the joist layout as designed, but the builder decides to do his own things for no reason other than "that's how he does it", without taking into consideration how those changes will force others to rework their designs, then that's a problem. It caused a joist in the WC to fall directly beneath the drawn toilet, forcing me to move the toilet much further off the wall than I wanted. I also had to rework the drainage to account for this change.

It didn't mean it couldn't be done. It just meant that I had to do more work because the builder "does what he does", regardless of how his work affects the next person who comes in and has to work with it. If the joists are drawn front to back, then that's the way they should be built. Doing it the other way is either a sign of apathy, or poor attention to detail.

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Old 01-26-2011, 09:41 AM   #33
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


Didn't read all the posts and I'm sure all my thoughts have been touched upon. Of course there are some rooms that have more flexibility than others when it comes to dimensions. Bathrooms, kitchens, especially if cabinetry has been order are critical rooms and need to be as specified. Bottom line is hiring a good GC who is all knowing and on top of every detail.

Any GC who is worth their salt is detailed oriented, experienced in many trades and maintains an open line of communication with his client. All blue prints have a standard statement "all measurements are to be verified in the field" Nothing is perfect in this world except God, but a good GC should be a close second.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:03 AM   #34
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


[quote=AgentW;578186]
That means, if a builder and a plumber (in this case, me) are given the designs and I design my drainage and venting based upon the joist layout as designed, but the builder decides to do his own things for no reason other than "that's how he does it", without taking into consideration how those changes will force others to rework their designs, then that's a problem. [quote]

Really?? you actually do a design based off drawings?, I have worked for years in the residential building industry and I don't ever think that I have seen a plumber show up to site with precut piping to be installed based on print layouts.

I have however seen, lengths of pipe and bags of fittings
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:07 AM   #35
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


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Originally Posted by loneframer View Post
I could go on for hours, but you get the gist. You can't always blame it on the framer.
Agreed.........

The GC, Archy & homeowner have come up with a plan.
By the time the framer gets there, the foundation is in and THAT"S what he has to work with.
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:14 PM   #36
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


[quote=Jackofall1;578209][quote=AgentW;578186]
That means, if a builder and a plumber (in this case, me) are given the designs and I design my drainage and venting based upon the joist layout as designed, but the builder decides to do his own things for no reason other than "that's how he does it", without taking into consideration how those changes will force others to rework their designs, then that's a problem.
Quote:

Really?? you actually do a design based off drawings?, I have worked for years in the residential building industry and I don't ever think that I have seen a plumber show up to site with precut piping to be installed based on print layouts.

I have however seen, lengths of pipe and bags of fittings
You misread my post. I obviously would not precut any piping based on plans. I, however, laid out how the drainage, venting, and supply lines were going to be laid. All measurements would be done on site (even though I had them from the autocad drawings as well). All plans for that particular drainage system had to be redone, along with moving the toilet, because the builder didn't follow the plans for joist layout.

In the end, it's not a huge deal, other than I'm not fully happy with the placement of the toilet (there was also limited flexibility created by this in expanding the adjacent shower room) and it required me to rework the designs for no other reason than "that's how I do it."
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:29 PM   #37
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


The dimensions in the center of the rooms is an approximation, mostly for the Homeowner to get a feel for the general size with in a couple inches. If the interior finished dimensions were the most important part that should have been pointed out to the architect. A builder would never have any idea about this unless you broughtit to his attention and he was involved with the design. Architects try to keep exterior measurment as whole numbers, on smaller houses they try to keep them to either even foot measurements or 6 in measurments. The reason is material usage and waste. If the foundation measurement is 25 ft 7 1/2 inch to make an interior finished room dimension it would cost you more. Reason being when I pour the foundation Im going to have to cut one of my panels thats a $65 charge. Form systems are set up for 4", 6"and 8" measurements because thats how most houses are designed. Then when I frame it Im going to waste sheating because instead of a 1 ft rip ill have to use a 1 ' 7 1/2 rip. I cant use that fall off anywhere. Id bet the dimensions on your plans are either to 2 ft measurements or 4 ft measurements. Also if the room says 12x12 its needs to be a little smaller to not have a small seam in the carpet.

The other reason there approximations is what does who consider finished. Is it the drywall, Texture on the drywall, the Base, window sill. Exterior dimensions and either center of wall (which I prefer unless its for a cabniet detail) are 100% instone build to dimensions. Sometimes things have to get fudged to make code issues or doors work. This often happens in Halls which smalls up usually the bedrooms. Often this is only an inch or two to account for drywall and base.

Can you take a picture of your plan?
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:35 PM   #38
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


[quote=AgentW;578394][quote=Jackofall1;578209]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
That means, if a builder and a plumber (in this case, me) are given the designs and I design my drainage and venting based upon the joist layout as designed, but the builder decides to do his own things for no reason other than "that's how he does it", without taking into consideration how those changes will force others to rework their designs, then that's a problem.

You misread my post. I obviously would not precut any piping based on plans. I, however, laid out how the drainage, venting, and supply lines were going to be laid. All measurements would be done on site (even though I had them from the autocad drawings as well). All plans for that particular drainage system had to be redone, along with moving the toilet, because the builder didn't follow the plans for joist layout.

In the end, it's not a huge deal, other than I'm not fully happy with the placement of the toilet (there was also limited flexibility created by this in expanding the adjacent shower room) and it required me to rework the designs for no other reason than "that's how I do it."
Lone is 100% correct. The framer should check that toilets and shower drains dont hit joist. If they do we just move the joist so it dosent hit and if theres an over span put in another joist. Your plumber should have caught this two and told the framer to move the joist. Never have seen a plumber move a toilet or shower because of framing. Heck some will just cut it out and then the framer has to come fix it after as its his fault not the gc ar architects.
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:38 PM   #39
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


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A little bit of common sense on the contractors part would have been nice.

My builder actually laid out our floor joists from back to front, rather than front to back. Due to this, the spacing was opposite the drawings, as 16" O.C. started from the back and not the front as it was supposed to. Due to this, I had to move a toilet and redo the plumbing and hood vent designs to use different bays (had to move the toilet entirely, as it now sat directly on top of a joist).
Whats the dimensions of your house?
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:27 PM   #40
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


I am doing an addition to my home and when working with the designer that drew the plans, I told him where I wanted the bedrooms to be and aproximate sizes. But when it came time for me to review the plans, the only dimensions on them were from outside of the exterior wall to next interior wall etc. .
Point being, it was up to me( if I had to know exactly) to subtract the wall thicknesses from these dimensions to determine exact room interior size. It sounds like to me you may have misinterpreted your drawings.
I actually told him I wanted one room 18 ft. wide becuase of some large furniture dimensions I had already picked out, but then thought about it later and realized my finished room width would only be 17 ft. or even a little less with base moulding accounted for. It will end up being a little tighter then I wanted. ---but then again that was my mistake.
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:52 PM   #41
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


Quote:
Originally Posted by loneframer

As for joist layout, as mentioned earlier. It shouldn't matter which end you pull from, because toilets and showers, etc., should always be allowed for with the layout.
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Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
Of course it does.
Yes, and no. Lone addresses that by saying it should always be allowed. I layout all plumbing and walls above on the sill and make the marks. I'll take my tape for example from the front and check to see if any 16" centers land on any waste lines. If not then great, the layout goes that way. If a 16" center hits a waste line pulling form the front or back, the joists get move away from the center of the waste line and another joists is added. The 16" centers never change. So, sometimes is doesn't matter which way you start you might hit the plumbing, but the framer always lays out for the plumbing.

Toilet and tub locations are never laid out according to joist layout, or changed.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:04 PM   #42
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


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It didn't mean it couldn't be done. It just meant that I had to do more work because the builder "does what he does", regardless of how his work affects the next person who comes in and has to work with it. If the joists are drawn front to back, then that's the way they should be built. Doing it the other way is either a sign of apathy, or poor attention to detail.
The framer has the plans and everything is marked where all toilets, tubs, walls above....etc go. The frame HAS to layout for this so there are no joists in the way. If the framer doesn't do that, he's WRONG, period! No reason why any toilets or anything else has to be moved because the framer screwed up. He will have to go back and fix it and move the joists or head them off.

This is framing 101. I've never once had a set of plans show me where to pull layout from. Never seen that happen before with dimensional lumber or I-joists.. Who does this? If I do ever get a set of plans that do spec the start of the 16" centers I will follow that because I follow everything on the plans.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:29 PM   #43
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


[quote=ubenhad4;578413][quote=AgentW;578394]
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Lone is 100% correct. The framer should check that toilets and shower drains dont hit joist.
Except he didn't. That's kind of my point. He just laid them out and didn't take into account the design, which had the toilet (and drainage) in between the joists.

Quote:
If they do we just move the joist so it dosent hit and if theres an over span put in another joist. Your plumber should have caught this two and told the framer to move the joist.
Subflooring was already completed by the time this was caught. I was, unfortunately, unable to check every aspect of his work at the time, so this was missed until I started looking into it.

Quote:
Never have seen a plumber move a toilet or shower because of framing. Heck some will just cut it out and then the framer has to come fix it after as its his fault not the gc ar architects.
Right, it probably could have been boxed out, but I had to pick my battles at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Carola
This is framing 101. I've never once had a set of plans show me where to pull layout from. Never seen that happen before with dimensional lumber or I-joists.. Who does this? If I do ever get a set of plans that do spec the start of the 16" centers I will follow that because I follow everything on the plans.
Well, if you look at the plans and see that the first joist from the back of the house is not 16" O.C., and the front of the house is, then it's pretty easy to figure out.

I agree, the framer was 100% wrong. As I mentioned above, rather than get into another nasty blowout with him, I decided to make the necessary adjustments myself. I wasn't talking major changes, but just changes that should not have had to have been made. The point of my story was really just that I've dealt with far too many contractors who do things 'their way' without consideration of how their way affects the next contractor to come in.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:35 PM   #44
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


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Yes, and no. Lone addresses that by saying it should always be allowed. I layout all plumbing and walls above on the sill and make the marks. I'll take my tape for example from the front and check to see if any 16" centers land on any waste lines. If not then great, the layout goes that way. If a 16" center hits a waste line pulling form the front or back, the joists get move away from the center of the waste line and another joists is added. The 16" centers never change. So, sometimes is doesn't matter which way you start you might hit the plumbing, but the framer always lays out for the plumbing.

Toilet and tub locations are never laid out according to joist layout, or changed.
The architect drew plans to allow for all of the plumbing. The joist layout was part of those plans and, based upon his design, the joists needed to be laid out from front to back, as the length of the house for how they were being laid out was not evenly divisible by 16", meaning starting from the front and laying 16" O.C. to the back would result in a different joist placement than laying from the back to the front.

The framer, not checking the plans before starting to place the joists, decided to start 16" O.C. from the back and lay them out moving forward. This changed the joist placement.

I think what I may not have made clear in my point is that he didn't just take the dimension from the plan and say, ok, the last joist in the back is only 12" O.C. from the exterior wall, and then move from there. He simply went 16" O.C. from the back to the front. That was because, according to him, he always works from back to front.

There were many things I could have done to address this but, based upon everything else I was dealing with, and the fact that the toilet really only moved about 4" or so, I decided this wasn't a battle I wanted to get into. I had plenty of other things to keep me occupied.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:35 PM   #45
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Actual room sizes not as large as the Blueprint measurements!


Do you have a complete set of plans? Does it contain drawings for the foundation? Check the plans and measure the foundation. If they don't match, someone took a short cut. Depending on your foundation contractor, he may not have had all the necessary forms and just left out " a couple inches"

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