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JHill 01-13-2008 11:07 AM

Wiring Safety Question
 
There is #12 Romex running the perimeter of the room. At each outlet, there's a junction box above. However, the wires coming from the junction box the the outlets are not cased in anything other than the coating on the wire.
Do you think I have to re-run solid Romex (or a whip of some sort) from the junction box to the outlet? Or can I just leave it and put the drywall back up?

Thank you in advance for you responses.



(ps, There are no inspections being done for this work.......it was just an outlet replacement)

chris75 01-13-2008 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88018)
There is #12 Romex running the perimeter of the room. At each outlet, there's a junction box above.

Were these j-boxes buried?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88018)

However, the wires coming from the junction box the the outlets are not cased in anything other than the coating on the wire.

So no boxes at all for the receptacles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88018)
Do you think I have to re-run solid Romex (or a whip of some sort) from the junction box to the outlet? Or can I just leave it and put the drywall back up?

I need some more info.

Matsukaze 01-13-2008 11:33 AM

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to describe. Are you saying that there are individual insulated wires, not enclosed in an overall jacket, and not in any kind of conduit, coming out of the junction box and running to the receptacle box? If so, that's no good.

JHill 01-13-2008 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsukaze (Post 88030)
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to describe. Are you saying that there are individual insulated wires, not enclosed in an overall jacket, and not in any kind of conduit, coming out of the junction box and running to the receptacle box? If so, that's no good.


That is exactly what I am saying. What would be the most cost effective way to correct this?

JHill 01-13-2008 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 88029)
Were these j-boxes buried?



So no boxes at all for the receptacles?



I need some more info.




- The junction boxes are right at the front of the studs, but there was no access from the front of the drywall itself. I understand that these should be accessible but to be completely honest, I'm not that concerned.

- All the receptacles are in their own boxes as well. It's just the wires running from the junction box up top to the outlet box that I'm worried about.



Thank you for your replies.

jwhite 01-13-2008 12:33 PM

This sounds like old "knob and tube" wire was original, and someone replaced the old wire with new romex most of the way, but re-used the knob and tube so as to not tear up the walls. This used to be an acceptable re-wire. It is not acceptable any more. (K&T is older now so the code as changed to adapt.)

If you have the walls open now, then there is not better time to bring the wiring up to current standards. The codes are written to keep you and your family safe.

You should also be concerned about the boxes being burried in the wall. This is also a code violation. If you are not willing to replace all the needed wireing then at least put cover plates on the old boxes to keep them accessable in the future.

Please try not be be too offended, but I am a bit reluctant to give any advice to you, as I get the impression that you intend to do whatever you want anyway.

What you need to do , for real, is replace all the wiring so that the romex extends from one recepticle box to the next, either without junction boxes, or via junction boxes that will be accessable when the project is finished.

I refuse to give any advice on how to "cob" this job up to something that you consider acceptable, but is not up to the standards of the code.

J. V. 01-13-2008 01:15 PM

You need NM (Romex) running into the boxes. If it is not romex I would replace it. NM is a jacketed/insulated cable. Splices not in boxes and individual wires running behing walls is a violation of the NEC.
If you are "not concerned" as you said, just forget about it. One day it will remind you.
Just curious. What type of connector is being used to hold the wires in the box opening?

Andy in ATL 01-13-2008 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. V. (Post 88065)
Just curious. What type of connector is being used to hold the wires in the box opening?

:laughing: :whistling2: You know there ain't no connector there.:huh: :jester:

JHill 01-13-2008 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. V. (Post 88065)
You need NM (Romex) running into the boxes. If it is not romex I would replace it. NM is a jacketed/insulated cable. Splices not in boxes and individual wires running behing walls is a violation of the NEC.
If you are "not concerned" as you said, just forget about it. One day it will remind you.
Just curious. What type of connector is being used to hold the wires in the box opening?


I will replace all of the wire going from the junction box to the receptical boxes with new Romex.

As far as what is connecting the wires to the box openings, there is some sort of yellow foam that plugs the holes. My guess is that spray foam.

Regarding the junction boxes being accessable, correct me if I am wrong but the only reason those should be accessable is for the sole purpose of getting to them without breaking drywall....correct? If that is the case, the reason I'm not concerned is if that time does come, I have no problem busting out the drywall to get to it.

JHill 01-13-2008 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhite (Post 88051)
Please try not be be too offended, but I am a bit reluctant to give any advice to you, as I get the impression that you intend to do whatever you want anyway.

What you need to do , for real, is replace all the wiring so that the romex extends from one recepticle box to the next, either without junction boxes, or via junction boxes that will be accessable when the project is finished.

I refuse to give any advice on how to "cob" this job up to something that you consider acceptable, but is not up to the standards of the code.


No offense taken White. I will indeed replace the wiring with Romex going from the junction to the receptacle. I was just looking to see if there was an easier and/or less expensive way to correct this.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

junkcollector 01-13-2008 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88038)
- The junction boxes are right at the front of the studs, but there was no access from the front of the drywall itself. I understand that these should be accessible but to be completely honest, I'm not that concerned.

It is an NEC violation to cover junction boxes. They need to be accessible at all times. As long as the wall is open, it is easy to move the boxes out.

It sounds like the previous installation was a hack job. I would be on the lookout any more violations.

How are the receptacles grounded?

jwhite 01-13-2008 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88073)
I will replace all of the wire going from the junction box to the receptical boxes with new Romex.

As far as what is connecting the wires to the box openings, there is some sort of yellow foam that plugs the holes. My guess is that spray foam.

Regarding the junction boxes being accessable, correct me if I am wrong but the only reason those should be accessable is for the sole purpose of getting to them without breaking drywall....correct? If that is the case, the reason I'm not concerned is if that time does come, I have no problem busting out the drywall to get to it.

Forgive me for being so bold, but the reason I hesitate to give any advice is because you the novice homeowner seem to think you can just pick and choose which aspects of the LAW you choose to obey.

You are not allowed, BY LAW to just pick and choose.

If you do not think that a certain part of the code is necessary, you are welcome to file a change with NFPA, the same as the rest of us. In the meantime, you must follow the Code.

Lets say, you sell the home. How will the new home owner even know where the boxes are located. Certainly not from your sellers disclosure. If you list the boxes there, you will have to correct the PROBLEM before you will be allowed to sell the home.

jwhite 01-13-2008 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHill (Post 88075)
No offense taken White. I will indeed replace the wiring with Romex going from the junction to the receptacle. I was just looking to see if there was an easier and/or less expensive way to correct this.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Dude you scare me. In looking for the cheepest way you are neglecting the safetly of your family. What other sections of the code do not meet with your approval. What else are you doing that could injure yourself, your home, and risk someones life.

How does reading a couple of internet forums, and maybe a book or two on wirieng make you qualified to decide what is safe and what is not in your wirieng?

The experts here are telling you to do the job correctly, yet you have already decided to do it your way. This makes you dangerous.

I hope you change your mind, and decide to to your work in a code compliant way.

JHill 01-13-2008 02:34 PM

OK.....so it sounds like I need to rip all the drywall out around the room, locate the junction boxes and make them accessible. Looking throughout the entire house, I cannot see any access panels/doors for other junction boxes anywhere (if there are boxes at all). So by law, I need to turn my $10 outlet replacement into a $2000 rehab. Is that what it looks like it has come to?

JHill 01-13-2008 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhite (Post 88097)
Dude you scare me. In looking for the cheepest way you are neglecting the safetly of your family. What other sections of the code do not meet with your approval. What else are you doing that could injure yourself, your home, and risk someones life.

How does reading a couple of internet forums, and maybe a book or two on wirieng make you qualified to decide what is safe and what is not in your wirieng?

The experts here are telling you to do the job correctly, yet you have already decided to do it your way. This makes you dangerous.

I hope you change your mind, and decide to to your work in a code compliant way.


Mr.White, I have not decided to "do it my way". I wouldn't be here asking questions if that was the case. Yes, I am an average "joe homeowner" and not a professional.....and yes, I am listening to the professionals here to find out my solutions but what is wrong with asking what's the most cost effective way? With all due respect, I'm here looking for guidance....not to have someone like you continually pound on me that I have no clue. If I KNEW what to do in the first place, I wouldn't be here asking questions.


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