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Old 08-26-2010, 10:34 PM   #1
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Wiring outside outlets.


I had a new patio put in and installed 1/2 inch conduit with 12-2 w/ground inside it 18 inches under patio for 2 outlets. Is this acceptable?

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Old 08-26-2010, 10:43 PM   #2
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Wiring outside outlets.


if by 12-2 you mean NM (Romex), then no. You cannot run NM in a conduit of other than short spans within a protective sleeve and you cannot use NM outside. You need to use a type of wire that is rated to be used outside and underground in conduit. THWN is the most common.

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Old 08-27-2010, 08:51 AM   #3
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Wiring outside outlets.


Well i ran this and now it seems like i cant even pull them out. If i left them what can happen if i use it that way?
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:58 AM   #4
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Wiring outside outlets.


If you leave the NM installed you will have a code violation. This should be fixed.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
If you leave the NM installed you will have a code violation. This should be fixed.
Only if it ever gets inspected by someone and they notice that NM was installed. Easy way to fix, is going to mean pulling the conduit off and then just install new conduit and pull proper wire if you want to do it right.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:48 AM   #6
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Wiring outside outlets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
if by 12-2 you mean NM (Romex), then no. You cannot run NM in a conduit of other than short spans within a protective sleeve and you cannot use NM outside. You need to use a type of wire that is rated to be used outside and underground in conduit. THWN is the most common.
(Not to open a can of worms, but I have encountered several differing opinions by electricians and AHJs as to whether 334.30 / 314.17 ( post the 2005 changes, anyway) allows NM in conduit in locations where it would otherwise be permitted).
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:23 AM   #7
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Wiring outside outlets.


Michael, to remove some of the ambiguity the definition of location, wet was better defined that a conduit outside is a wet location. NM is not allowed in wet locations.
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:15 PM   #8
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Wiring outside outlets.


334.12(B)(4)

NM shall not be used in a wet or damp location.




not sure what you have in mind with the code sections 334.30 and 314.17

334.30 is about securing NM and 314.17 is about conduit bodies and fittings. I don't see where either section would be applicable to the question at hand.
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:15 PM   #9
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Wiring outside outlets.


After 3 and a 1/2 hours i was able to get a 12-2 UF w/ground throu to 1 of the 2 locations (actually the most important location). I should be good to go now on this one.

If I cant get the other run done... seems to be very hard pulling... oh well I will just use the one location. I will pull the sweep 90 off on the one end for a straigt shot maybe that will help.

thanks guys you always come through for me on here. My thanks to each and everyones reply!!
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:32 PM   #10
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Wiring outside outlets.


When pulling wires thru conduit there is a lubricant made for this purpose
Not sure what a small bottle costs, but I think the ~quart size I bought was $7
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:47 AM   #11
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When pulling wires thru conduit there is a lubricant made for this purpose
Not sure what a small bottle costs, but I think the ~quart size I bought was $7
There also is a correct type of wire designed to be pulled into conduit. You did not use the correct wire either time. You used compliant wire (UF) but not the right wire for the job.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:23 PM   #12
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Wiring outside outlets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
334.12(B)(4)

NM shall not be used in a wet or damp location.




not sure what you have in mind with the code sections 334.30 and 314.17

334.30 is about securing NM and 314.17 is about conduit bodies and fittings. I don't see where either section would be applicable to the question at hand.
There are two issues under discussion: NM it wet locations, and NM in conduit.

WRT the latter, some electricians and AHJs hold that that these sections of the NEC prohibit NM in conduit (other than short lengths of conduit as a sleeve) because the NM is not properly supported and/ or there are no listed connections available to secure the cable ends. Others disagree.

See for example this discussion:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/i...p/t-62455.html
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:40 PM   #13
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Wiring outside outlets.


Well the folks that use that justification for not allowing conduit are simply wrong because the NEC specifically states that sections that are being protected from damage by a raceway are NOT required to be secured within the raceway. (334.30). So, if you accept that 334.15(B) allows NM to be run in a complete (box-conduit-box) system of conduit, there would be no requirement to secure the NM, period.

so, let's consider the possibility that NM can be run in conduit. Ever figured out what 40% fill would be? You would have to consider the entire cable.

on an elliptical cable (which NM would be), you must use the larger dimension of the ellipse and consider the cable to be of that diameter. 12/2 is about what, 1/2 inch wide (just a guess). That means you would have to treat that as a 1/2" diameter conductor. With that guesstimation, that means you would have to run at least a 3/4" conduit (emt) for 1 12/2 cable.

Along with that. 300.17 requires that the number and size of conductors in any raceway shall not be more than will permit dissipation of the heat and ready installation or withdrawal of the conductors without damage to the conductors or insulation.





I have a difficult time making and argument either for or against running NM in a complete conduit system but if nothing else, to me, it is poor practice. I suspect each local AHJ will have to make the call and without a clear and convincing argument one way or the other, that is what the AHJ gets to do; interpret.
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luweee View Post
I had a new patio put in and installed 1/2 inch conduit with 12-2 w/ground inside it 18 inches under patio for 2 outlets. Is this acceptable?

thanks
I agree that in some circumstances NM is allowed in conduit, but in your case it is a violation. NM is allowed in conduit (based on 2005/2008 nec):
  • as long as it is under the 53% conduit fill (since it is treated as a single conductor), Chapter 9 tables, table 1, Note 9
  • as long as it is a normally dry location 334.10 (A)(1) and not a wet or damp location 334.12(B)(4) (334.12 B4 was added in 2008- not sure why it was needed)
  • ...and "Sections of cable protected from physical damage by
    raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway." per 334.30 so securing is not an issue, and it is obviously supported by the conduit/raceway
  • ...and 314.17 (B), when it says "Where raceway or cable is installed with metal boxes or conduit bodies, the raceway or cable shall be secured to such boxes and conduit bodies. " clearly requires that when a raceway OR a cable is used, the raceway OR the cable shall be secured to the conduit body, box, fitting...etc. This does not mean a cable in a raceway must be secured to the box - it would serve no purpose and there is no device that I am aware of to accomplish it anyway - ask the inspector what he wants you to use to do it if he/she says differently.
You have a violation of:
  • the applicable section for the type of conduit you used, because each type refers to the Chapter 9, Table 1 fills, and in no case would any 1/2" type of raceway allow the NM or UF relating to fill. As nap said, the long side of the cable width has to be used as a diameter for fill calculations. Didn't you think something was wrong as you tried to pull it in???
  • 334.12(B)(4) because under the patio slab is a wet location
To use the existing conduit, you need to remove the UF and install THWN conductors in the conduit (and the THWN wire install should take no longer than 20 mins - compared to the 3.5 hrs to install the UF and whatever it's going to be to remove it!)




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