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Old 08-27-2007, 01:12 PM   #1
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Wiring nightmare


First, let me preface my story/questions with...



Now, brief background...we bought a late 70's home which was built/owned by a local church as a Parsonage. That being said, as we start one project after another in our remodel endeavour, we are ALWAYS surprised at what we uncover in the process!

The Project: Remove a double oven and seperate cooktop range and replace with a free-standing range. (EVERYTHING in this house is electric btw) The ovens AND cooktop were on seperate circuits, each going to 40A breakers. They were wired with 10/3.

Where are we now: Demo'd the cooktop and double ovens. Demo'd the associated cabinets and offending soffetts. Pulled 10/3 wiring (shutting off breakers first of course, lest I be writing this from the hospital or worse). The free-standing range req's a 40A breaker so I was good there with the existing, however, I ran 8/3 from a new outlet to the breaker box. I am at a point now where I am trying to run the 8/3 down into the box.

Next step: Figure out a way to get the stupid wire through an S-Curve and down the wall into a quarter-sized hole i the breaker box....THEN...that leads me to my big question...

Each of the old breakers had red and black. There are two terminal strips (one on top of the other) with what looks to be a combination of neutrals and grounds. Once I get the wire down TO the box, would I be correct in attaching the red and black to one fo the 40A breakers (there are now two free ones from the ovens/cooktop removal) and the neutral/ground to the terminal strips?

We are without cooking capability at the moment and I have GOT to get this thing wrapped up ASAP! I do NOT want support the fast food industry ANY LONGER!

Any help as fast as you can give it would be GREATLY appreciated!!!! (I 'm sure my wife would be happy too! lol)

gf

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Old 08-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #2
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Wiring nightmare


I might have not understood your post ... it wasn't really clear to me on what you actually replaced vs. left in place.

But #10 CU is only rated for 30 amps.... the initial wiring was definitely in violation....10 on a 40a brkr...no...no....

I assume you replaced this wiring with 8/3 w/grd Cu cable....ie, ...blk, red, wh, & a bare grd.

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Old 08-27-2007, 01:50 PM   #3
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Wiring nightmare


I removed the double oven, cooktop, and all 10/3 wiring between the appliance connections and the breakers. (There were no outlets because someone HARDWIRED them in place with nuts and an electrical/duct tape combo!)

I installed a receptacle for the four wire connection to our new freestanding range and ran 8/3 over to the panel. Now the fun has begun...I just want to make sure that my thoughts on wiring it to the panel are correct before I jump in with both feet. There are two available 40A breakers (from the previous 10/3 wiring which I removed) and two terminal strips located in the box, below the breakers. I have Red/White/Black w/ Gnd. It's a matter of safely plugging all the pieces into the right holes. Help?
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:57 PM   #4
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Wiring nightmare


OK..
Red & Blk to the brkr terminals.
The white and bare to the grounded neutral bus in you service entrance panel.
Check to see if your "area" has the neutral and ground bus separated. Then just run the neutral (white) to the neutral bus...and the bare ground to the ground bus. It's pretty easy to see this...
Take Care...
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:01 PM   #5
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Wiring nightmare


ok, thanks...

there are two terminals with what appears to be neutrals AND grounds going to one and the other is empty. They are connected together, one above the other. Pick a spot and connect away?

Also, any advice for running down thru the wall WITHOUT using a drywall knife?

I about KILLED myself last night...knee deep in insulation and trying to snake it around the supports and down into the wall...nevermind the quarter-sized hole I am aiming for...which I can't even SEE while I am doing it!
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:34 PM   #6
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Wiring nightmare


Quote:
Originally Posted by gfreely View Post
ok, thanks...

there are two terminals with what appears to be neutrals AND grounds going to one and the other is empty. They are connected together, one above the other. Pick a spot and connect away?

Also, any advice for running down thru the wall WITHOUT using a drywall knife?

I about KILLED myself last night...knee deep in insulation and trying to snake it around the supports and down into the wall...nevermind the quarter-sized hole I am aiming for...which I can't even SEE while I am doing it!
Difficult to understand your comments ... they really aren't concise.
Hey don't worry about cutting deywall ...
look at all the $$$ you are saving by be frugal and attempting to do it yourself ....
sure hope you do it right....

pull permits ... get it inspected ..... be safe ... before you are sorry....
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:04 PM   #7
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Wiring nightmare


Red and Black to the 40 amp breaker. White to the neutral bus. Bare to the ground bus. If this is the main service entrance panel, the white and the bare can share the same bus bar. if this is a sub panel (secondary panel) the white neutral and bare must be on seperate bus bars.
Note: Bus bar means terminal strip.

Are you sure the range is 40 amp? Most are 50 amp. #8 is good for 50 amp.
The plug and receptacle are going to be 50 amp. They do not make 40 amp receptacles and plugs.

You can fish your wire down into the panel and receptacle with a little thought. Two people, one pushing the cable and one feeling for it.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:49 PM   #8
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Wiring nightmare


Hello gfreely

Any range 8.75 kw or more can have a 40 amp branch circuit serving it. If your range installation instructions say 40 amp then that is fine. 8/3 G copper cable is not good for 50 amps unless it is service rated or tray cable rated. If your 8/3 G cable is NM-b cable it is only rated for 40 amps.
If your cable is running to a sub-panel post back telling us if it is. The previous advice (J.V.) about separated neutral and ground is not always the case. In fact if this is a home prior to 1996 then it probably does not have separate neutral and ground in the sub-panel. However, you state your neutrals and grounds are terminated to the same bar. So most likely you are wiring from your service panel.

All range receptacles are 50 amp rated it has nothing to do with whether or not you have a 40 amp branch circuit serving the range.

Is this range new? If so... did it come with a 4 wire cord and plug? Or did you install the cord and plug to the range?

Stubbie
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:21 PM   #9
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Wiring nightmare


The new range was just purchased. It came with a 4-wire cord. The rating plate inside the door states that it *should* use no more than 40A. I put a 4-wire plug in and ran the 8/3 to the box. You guys have been a gold-mine of info as far as hooking it up. Yes, this is the main panel, and as it appears, the gnd and neutrals are on the same bar.

This house was most likely built by volunteers and maintained by a "handyman". It went through a major flood in the 80s and from about a four foot line around the house to the floor had to be replaced. Hence the hardwiring of appliances, HALF sheets of drywall with bulging seams, etc.

The hard part, it seems now, is getting th estupid wire from the attic to the panel. I have to follow the other lines and go between the double beams (load-bearing wall) and the outside wall, make an s-curve under it (where I can't see anything), and try to get it in FRONT of the insulation or to the SIDE of it at the LEAST.

NOT going to be fun, but as I tried to say earlier, I HATE supporting the fast-food industry with a brand-new range sitting in my kitchen!
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:22 PM   #10
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Wiring nightmare


Fishing wires is such fun! You've just got to figure out the easiest, code compliant route to take. You are using a fish tape aren't you? Having someone pull while you guide the wire through the tight areas helps. If the existing 10 gauge wire wasn't stapled you can use it pull the tape through.

Remember drywall is pretty easy to patch, so a carefully located hole here or there might help. If you've torn out soffits and cabs already then you're going to have drywall work to do anyway.(You didn't install the new drywall, cabinets and paint before you ran the electric did you?)

In the future, you should always plan these things out and understand all the details before you start. Otherwise you end up spending more on fast food than an electrician would have charged!

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