Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-17-2013, 06:49 PM   #16
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Share |
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
I hate to put a damper on this part as well the CE marking is only good in European area but nothing for Canada or USA side at all.

Merci,
Marc
I apologize, I thought the CE label was a Canadian listing. That would make sense. As I noted earlier, the blue and brown input wire colors are a European tip off.

__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to k_buz For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (02-18-2013)
Old 02-17-2013, 06:51 PM   #17
Semi-Pro Electro-Geek
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,520
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
It has to be listed for use in the US. It is not, as far as I can tell.
Code cite? That's not what the code says.
__________________
I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. And who cares anyways? We're here to talk construction. This is DIY advice, not legal advice.
mpoulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #18
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpoulton View Post
Code cite? That's not what the code says.
Are you seriously arguing that a product that is listed for use in Europe is automatically OK to install in the US? I'd love to hear that argument with the inspector.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 09:14 PM   #19
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,851
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I apologize, I thought the CE label was a Canadian listing. That would make sense. As I noted earlier, the blue and brown input wire colors are a European tip off.
I am assuming your saying this product is not for sale in the USA or is not compatible in the USA. I don't see that statement anywhere ...

It appears a company in ST. Louis Missouri is offering this product . Just information .. not that it is relevant.

I contend that the FCC certification and the UL Rohs certification are all that a inspector or AHJ needs to allow it. Though how many jobsites have the fixtures available for inspection by the authority....

I'm not sure why your surprised at my reply. The product we are looking at is not listed by UL afaik because likely they have not tested it yet nor has any other lab that I can tell. It does however carry certifications that have approved the product by 3 different product compliance agencies so that it can be sold in the market place and meets the required standards. In this case european, usa and UL certicfications, I'm also not sure why you are citing wire color coming off the product power supply as a reason it won't or is'nt made for use in the USA. Blue is neutral and brown is power in the UK and other european countries.There are many lighting devices fixtures,ballasts etc that have wires that do not match your typical supply wire colors. It's not unusal to have an orange 277 volt power wire that connects to a black wire of a fixture or ballast as an example. The UL in no way has tested everything available for sale in the USA and these can be installed in your home..

It is also common for local jurisdictions, municipalities etc.. to have rules or laws requireing items for sale at retailers and suppliers be UL listed if they are to be sold locally. There is nothing stopping you from buying on line.

Are you saying that nothing can be installed in the USA without a testing lab marking? The NEC does not state this ... if so where? I don't think citing article 110.3 will work.

A UL listing mark means the product has been tested ... a UL certification is all that an AHJ needs to determine if a product has been evaluated to meet the UL standard without testing it.

Red and bold are mine ... this from the UL website

As an Authority Having Jurisdiction do I need a UL Standard to determine if a UL Certified product complies with that standard?

UL Standards for Safety are not needed to determine code compliance, even if the installation code indicates that a product or material must comply with a specific UL Standard. The Guide information in UL's Online Certifications Directory, or in UL's published product directories, usually identifies the standard(s) used to investigate and certify products in a particular product category. This information can assure code officials that a product was evaluated to the appropriate product standard, which is often referenced in a model code or regulation.


Sooo I may not have all the information that I would like on this product but the markings tell me that some pretty good agencies are aware of this product and have bothered to certify it for sale ... which is why it carries the ROHS certification due to the fact it is an electronic operated device. Frankly I could care less what the color of the wires are as long as the wiring diagram tells me what color is neutral and power and it will operate at USA voltages for single phase.

BTW the listed operating voltage is 95 to 140 VAC ... in europe (where it might be made) the voltage for this product would be 230 to 250 volts line to neutral. IMO it is likely a product manufactured in Europe for sale in the USA which is why it carries both european and USA certifications ... quite common for a UL testing label to not exist on these products.


The cheapest piece of crap receptacles carry a UL label, just making a point.


Now having said all this I will contact the company and post their reply as to USA compliance ... I may or may not eat crow ...
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie

Last edited by Stubbie; 02-17-2013 at 09:23 PM.
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 09:41 PM   #20
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


The RoHS stamp means that contains less than a certain amount of hazardous materials.

The FCC logo means that it will not produce interference.

Neither of these mean that the product is actually a listed product.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:05 PM   #21
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,851
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
The RoHS stamp means that contains less than a certain amount of hazardous materials.

The FCC logo means that it will not produce interference.

Neither of these mean that the product is actually a listed product.
I understand that and no they absolutely do not mean it is listed. In fact it is not listed. These are certifications ... meaning that these USA agencies have evaluated the product and it ,in their opinion, meets the necessary standards for the product in question for what they evaluted it for.

You do not have to have the god almighty mother may I UL label to install the product in your home .... it's not a bad idea ... in fact it should give you some peace of mind. However I do not place them (UL) on a pedestal as some of the stuff they test and label is out right junk.

I'm simply saying that the inspector or AHJ either/or/both can allow the product if certifications lend them to believe the product is suitable equipment for the application that it has been designed.
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 PM   #22
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


I 100% agree that a product does not need a UL listing. I also agree that the AHJ has the final say. With that said, my inspectors would ask to see a listing for these fixtures and I don't think I could get one of them to pass it.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:19 PM   #23
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,851
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I 100% agree that a product does not need a UL listing. I also agree that the AHJ has the final say. With that said, my inspectors would ask to see a listing for these fixtures and I don't think I could get one of them to pass it.
That's quite possible, though as I said before inspectors at rough in aren't too terribly concerned about what happens after the end of the branch circuit ....
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 01:35 AM   #24
Semi-Pro Electro-Geek
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,520
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Are you seriously arguing that a product that is listed for use in Europe is automatically OK to install in the US? I'd love to hear that argument with the inspector.
No, that's not the argument. As I said, the inspector MAY pass it. It is not a code violation. It is also not automatically acceptable. The code requires that luminaires be listed. The code defines "listed" as "Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services..."

The code itself provides no reason why UL listing should be preferred over CE listing, or CSA, or ETL. Just because the CE mark was developed for the EU, or the CSA listing for Canada doesn't make them inherently worse or less preferable than UL. For an inspector to accept UL listing but refuse to accept CSA makes little sense. Some inspectors might refuse, but I think many could be convinced.
__________________
I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. And who cares anyways? We're here to talk construction. This is DIY advice, not legal advice.
mpoulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 05:53 AM   #25
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


This should put an end to any questions...
http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtlmrk.html
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 10:03 AM   #26
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,851
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


I'm not sure how that tells us if the product can be sold and installed in the USA .... ?? I believe that only is telling us what NRTL's are recognized by OSHA.

At any rate the contact e-mail for the company offering this product for sale in St. Louis MO. would not accept my inquiry . So I called them. All their products are for sale and for use in the USA. The recessed light fixture we are looking at is made in the UK and carries the necessary certifications to allow it to be exported and sold for use in this country. That's about all the information the guy could tell me.
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 12:31 PM   #27
Semi-Pro Electro-Geek
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,520
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
This should put an end to any questions...
http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtlmrk.html
Not at all. OSHA's recognition of certain testing labs has no bearing whatsoever on an AHJ's acceptance of equipment listings. OSHA is never the AHJ for NEC enforcement. That's like saying that because the TSA requires 4-ounce shampoo bottles on airplanes, the local cops can't let you drive through town with a 12-ounce bottle.
__________________
I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. And who cares anyways? We're here to talk construction. This is DIY advice, not legal advice.
mpoulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 04:06 PM   #28
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,335
Default

Wiring fixture free line voltage LED's


Some of you might recognize the name...

Quote:
Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
The CE mark does not require testing and or evaluation by a third party and that is why it is not accepted as a NRTL. The manufacturers self certify that their products meet the standards and place the CE mark on the product.

__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to k_buz For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (02-18-2013)
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Analog multimeter shows voltage even with 3-way switch off OCPik4chu Electrical 17 09-25-2012 12:20 PM
Resistor/Led and Basic Electricity Questions Khivar Electrical 19 04-16-2012 06:15 PM
Questions about wiring a line voltage thermostat thinksincode Electrical 15 01-12-2012 08:50 PM
low voltage wiring for niche lighting 8roty Electrical 4 01-16-2010 07:17 AM
Problem with line voltage mehranalmasi Electrical 21 07-04-2007 06:12 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.