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toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 05:03 AM

Wiring double switch for new ceiling fan
 
2 Attachment(s)
I just bought a new ceiling fan and will be mounting it in a place where there is currently no fixture. So I will be adding a juction box in the ceiling to tap off of the current line that runs from a single light switch to an outlet on the other side of the room (the only lighting I have in this room is the plugged in lamp). I would like to replace the switch with a dual switch that will control the fan with one slider and the light (on the fan) with the other. I have not done much electrical wiring before. I noticed in the existing lightswitch there is 14/3 coming down the wall, and 14/2 coming up the wall (I assume then runs off to another light switch or outlet downstairs.) I don't know what to do with the red wire. The ground and black wires were attached to the switch as well as the single red wire coming down from the ceiling. The white was bypassing the switch. With the new dual slider switch, I'm not sure which wires to connect where. Please help. Here is how I'd like to run my wires for the new fan.

Attachment 278

The wires running out of the right side of the junction box go to the outlet on the other side of the room. The magenta wire is actually a black-with-white-stripe wire. The directions say to "connect to wire from wall switch". Not sure which wire they mean. Here is the switch schematic.

Attachment 279

I'm confused on what the schematic is telling me. Is neutral the same as the white return wire? And what exactly is the red wire (in the 14/3) if the black is always hot? Can someone help with how to connect the switch up to the incoming 14/3 and 14/2? Also, at the fan, if I connect black to black, white to white, gnd to gnd, then what do I do with the Magenta (black with white stripe)?

Thanks and much appreciated for any advice offered.

Toolman-(electrician)-wannabe

jwhite 08-13-2006 05:46 AM

Nice drawings tooman. From what you say it looks like you have a half switched rec on the wall on the other side of the room. The black is being used for the half of the outlet that is hot all the time, and the red is being used for the half that is switched. Your feed could be at either the outlet or it could be that black and white comming up from downstairs at the switch box.

In either case you cannot do what you want with the existing wires.
Post back regarding which end is the feed from the panel, the rec or the light switch. That is an important part of the picture.

The black and black with stripe at the light are for the fan and light to be individually controlled. The directions or a tag on the wire should tell you which is for the fan and which is for the light. This is important because you must hook the dimmer and the speed control to the proper device you you can cause damage to your equipment.

We also need to know which color on the dimmer/speed control are labled for fan and light respectively. Or is that a copy of the mfg schematic that you provided?

Yes the neurtal is the white wire. This is a misuse of the word neutral, but it is also common trade terminology so go with the flow on that one.

jwhite 08-13-2006 05:48 AM

I also want to add that you will not likely get enough slack in the wire that goes across the ceiling to make a splice. A min of two boxes will be needed with a bit of wire between them. This will look ugly in the ceiling unless you can put them in the attic.

Also you need a fan rated box where you plan to put the fan.

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 02:07 PM

reply to jwhite
 
Thanks jw,

I really appreciate your help with this. First a couple of things to clarify. The switch schematic is a duplicate of what came with the switch. I created it in MS Paint. Also, the wiring will be done in the attic because the room I'm doing this in is my bedroom. So no problem with ugly wiring. But you are correct. The wiring over the ceiling (up in the attic) is tight so I will be using a second juction box to give me more slack.

I went around the room and looked at all other switches and outlets. None of them use a red wire (they all have 14/2 running to and from them). Except for one other switch in my closet for the closet light. That has the red wire and the light has the red connected to it's black (for On-Off like you said in your post?)

Back to the switch of concern: I can't tell whether the outlet or switch is the feed from the panel.

Another thing about the outlet is that the white is connected and the black is bypass. Is that normal? So the outlet has red, white, and ground connected but no black. Here's another thing. The outlet is not a half switch outlet. Both receptacles are either on or off. Could this be because the white (return/neutral) are tied in and not the black? If the white were bypass and the black were tied in, would there be a half switch rec like you suggested?

Also, the fan directions only say to connect Blk-Blk, Wht-Wht, Gnd-Gnd, and black/white to "the wire for the wall switch". Is this a possiblility: The red (from the 14/3) is the neutral that is shown in the switch schematic, black is hot (like you mentioned in your post), white is return (but also neutral?) and we don't touch that. If red at the switch location is neutral (for ON-OFF?, as shown in the switch schematic) would I connect the blue and red wired from the switch to the red wire in the wall? Then connect black from the switch to black in the wall, ground to ground, and leave white alone.

Does this help? Let me know if you need more info.

jwhite 08-13-2006 02:20 PM

I am getting the general idea here. The original person who wired this used black for constant hot, and red for switch legs.

You say that at the switched outlet the black is bypass. Does that mean that it is wirenutted to another wire back in the box?

Also do you have the directions for the switch? We need to know what the color leads on the switch mean.

I am working on a drawing for you, but I need the details.

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 02:23 PM

Wiring Option
 
1 Attachment(s)
Will this wiring work? As shown in my initial post, the blue switch wire is for the fan and the red switch wire is for the light. This shows both connected to the red wall wire.

Attachment 280

jwhite 08-13-2006 02:29 PM

to get a half switched rec the white would tie in as is. The black would be on one screw on the hot side and the red on another, and the tie bar on the device between them would be broken.

jwhite 08-13-2006 02:33 PM

We are getting close. I think I have it. All we need now is to know for sure which wire at the fan/light is for the fan or the light. The choice is between the black and the black with a stripe.

Before you connect the dimmer and speed control be sure you know which is which. Something will burn up if you are not, and you dont want to be out buying more new parts.

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 02:34 PM

yes, you are correct. at the switched outlet, the black (bypass) is wire nutted. This is just like at the switch location where I have 14/3 and 14/2 coming together. The two blacks are wire nutted. At the switch, the two whites are wire nutted.

The switch schematic is the best I can give you. The switch is from Hunter (I bought a Hunter fan) and the part# is 27182. It operates 3 fan speed (hi, med, low, off) and the light dimmer is full range. It says it requires 3-wire wall switch installation. Is this what I have with the 14/3 or do I need another wire?

In note 3 of the switch info, it says, "This control requires separate wiring for the ceiling fan and fan light kit. If one wall switch currently supplies power to both the fan and light, additional wiring for the light fixture will be required to use this All-Fan control."

So would the "additional wiring" be that third conductor (Red)?

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 02:41 PM

switch wire colors
 
jw,

The new dual slider switch has three wired coming out of it. Black, Blue and Red. From the schematic I know that the black is for Hot, Blue is for the fan, and the Red is for the light.

I am looking through the fan assembly directions to see if they specify with more clarity the wires that come out of it and attach to my junction box.

jwhite 08-13-2006 02:43 PM

http://dandjelectrical.com/images/SwFanlightRec.jpg

Here is what I have from what you have told me. I suggest that you try the fan and light sperately with wirenuts before you install the wall dimmer/speed control to be sure about that part.

jwhite 08-13-2006 02:48 PM

oh yea, I forgot. You need a 4 counductor between the fan/light and switch or a new 2 conductor from the switch box to the rec box.

Your existing wires will not work.

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 02:57 PM

updated wiring diagram
 
1 Attachment(s)
jw,

you beat me to the punch. I'll post this anyway. Here is how the outlet ties in to the wiring diagram.

Attachment 281

jwhite 08-13-2006 03:04 PM

Notice your black wire from the switch box to the outlet ties into the fan/light combo. This will not work. Look over my drawing again. I have an extra blue wire, and it is needed.

toolmanwannabe 08-13-2006 03:23 PM

jw,

Okay, if i'm reading your diagram right, you have me running separate fan (blue) and light (red) wires from the switch to the fan/light assembly. white is still bypass at the switch but is then connected at the fan/light assembly. black is connected at the switch (HOT) but then bypasses the fan/light assembly. Looks like the original red wire (14/3 in wall) is removed from this all together?

At the outlet, you have me connecting white and black, but no red. So we are eliminating the original red wire.

Now, at the fan/light assembly, you think the black from the assembly should connect to the red from the switch (so the light will be hot or on only when the dimmer is used) and the black/white from the assembly should be connected to the blue wire from the switch to control the fan? I have to see what the deal is with these wires coming out of the fan/light assembly. maybe in the directions they say to connect black with black because they are assuming a standard on/off switch.

The directions do say that when wiring to a single switch to connect both black and black/white from the assembly to the black in the juction box. I guess then there will aways be constant power to both fan and light through the same (HOT) black wire in the wall. Then you would have to use the pull chains to turn off the lights and adjust fan speed.

Do I have this right?


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