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-   -   Wire size for grounding to water meter? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/wire-size-grounding-water-meter-107552/)

WillK 06-13-2011 01:51 PM

Wire size for grounding to water meter?
 
:furious: Once again, the inspector decided to come up with more things he could've brought up on any of the 4 inspection. It's mostly little stuff. For now I'll stick with the one I need to ask about here.

So he pointed out the new panel I intend to move my service to should have a ground wire to the water meter. My question is on sizing the wire. What size does it need to be? 200 amp service. A table reference would be handy, is it the same table I used for the ground conductor sizing?

AllanJ 06-13-2011 02:28 PM

For 200 amp service use a 4 gauge copper wire from the panel to the water pipe (within 5 feet of where it enters the house and also between where it enters and the meter).

This is from a different table of sizes (for grounding electrode conductors) as opposed to ground wires from main panel to subpanel (grounding conductors).

Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.

WillK 06-13-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllanJ (Post 666576)
For 200 amp service use a 4 gauge copper wire from the panel to the water pipe (within 5 feet of where it enters the house and also between where it enters and the meter).

Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.

This is from a different table of sizes as opposed to ground wires from main panel to subpanel.

K... I'm assuming I only have to connect this at the meter???

The meter itself is actually physically inside the house, it has a wire to a supplemental digital readout on the outside of the house. The pipe comes out of the ground in the crawlspace, there isn't anywhere outside the house that the pipe is accessible.

electures 06-13-2011 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillK (Post 666555)
:furious: Once again, the inspector decided to come up with more things he could've brought up on any of the 4 inspection. It's mostly little stuff. For now I'll stick with the one I need to ask about here.

So he pointed out the new panel I intend to move my service to should have a ground wire to the water meter. My question is on sizing the wire. What size does it need to be? 200 amp service. A table reference would be handy, is it the same table I used for the ground conductor sizing?

Table 250.66
#4 CU or #2 AL.

NJMarine 06-13-2011 06:05 PM

You can run #4cu or #2al to one side of water meter and than jump over to other side with the same wire.Use same size wire for hot water heater

WillK 06-13-2011 07:59 PM

:huh:

thanks for mentioning the water heater... I'd certainly rather this came up now than on Weds.

Sooo... I'll be back later with pictures, but the water heater and the meter happen to be in the same room at this time. (I later was planning on moving the water heater and going to tankless, but that's a few years off and I plan to be doing less DIY by then since the house will be paid off in theory)

1) I assume that I can pass the wire through the clamp for one, then continue it on to the other

2) For the water heater, do I connect to hot, cold, both or somewhere else?
3) Is there anything else I might have overlooked for grounding?

BlueBSH 06-13-2011 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllanJ (Post 666576)
Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.


really? never had anyone tell me that before, guess it makes sense since the heater might break the grounding path... we don't have one on our heater, is this just for electric heaters or all water heaters?

Speedy Petey 06-13-2011 08:35 PM

Unless you have no boiler, or no shower mixing valves in the house, you do NOT have to jump hot to cold at the water heater.
Typically the hot and cold are bonded far better than a wire jumper could ever provide.

NJMarine 06-14-2011 07:16 AM

The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.

electures 06-14-2011 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 667034)
The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.

What section?

Speedy Petey 06-14-2011 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 667034)
The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.

You can keep re-posting this all you want. It is still NOT, repeat NOT, required.

Also, a properly installed water bond would also eliminate the problem you describe. I'd bet anything that something else was not correct in that scenario. it was NOT the fault of the missing golden jumper.

Speedy Petey 06-14-2011 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 667034)
The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.

And since we are copying and pasting posts from other threads:

The handbook commentary is NOT the code and is NOT enforceable. It is simply commentary. Don't get me wrong though, I use it myself quite often.

Sure, "it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected", but it CAN be confirmed by checking that the items I mentioned are present in the house.
If this were the case WHY is it not required in the code itself???

Do you refute the fact that a shower mixing valve does physically, mechanically and electrically bond the hot and cold piping systems???

NJMarine 06-14-2011 07:08 PM

It should, Certain areas have there own requirements, NJ it is required.

Speedy Petey 06-14-2011 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 667416)
...., NJ it is required.

In writing?

electures 06-14-2011 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 667416)
It should, Certain areas have there own requirements, NJ it is required.

Where in the code?


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