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Old 01-26-2009, 11:41 PM   #16
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelhead View Post
My square D QO panel also allows 2 wires per terminal.
Interesting, from Square D's site:

Quote:
Branch neutral terminals suitable for one #14 –#4 AWG copper or one #12 –#4 AWG aluminum wire
????????????

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ele...1100CT0501.pdf

Page 28 - panel label

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie View Post
I've have seen panels designed to accept two wires. Breakers also! I fail to see why its a problem?
Do you know what against code means???

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Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 01-26-2009 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:10 AM   #17
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Thanks guys, my misunderstanding, the wire nutting in the panel I read about before must be referring to ground then. In that case I will try to find a neutral bar extension.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:15 AM   #18
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Wire nut inside subpanel


I get my inspection tomorrow on a house addition. I had to double up two pairs of grounds to avoid double lugging (SqD panel from 1975). I also doubled up the two curly neutrals from the AFCI and GFCI breakers (20 A) that I just put in for the new bedroom and bathroom circuits. I used some white #8 TH to run the two ft or so around the panel to the neutral terminal strip. Will I be tagged for this? Let me know what you think and you can tune in again tomorrow for the answer.

There are still 3 or 4 neutrals terminated on the ground strip and all the Al ground shields for the big stuff are twisted neatly and terminated on the neutral strip, which is the only one with hoies large enough to accommodate these monsters. I thought about splicing them all with a splitbolt (lots of anti-oxidant) and then running a big thick piece of Cu from the split bolt to the single really oversize hole on the ground strip. But it doesn;t seem worth my time unless the inspector wants it done. Again, any thoughts on this?

Also, as i was doing all this, I discovered my #10 water heater circuit was protected by a 60 A breaker. I replaced it with a 30 A. I've owned the house since 1989, so i suspect the 60 A breaker has been there since the house was built. Any thoughts?
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:31 AM   #19
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Interesting, from Square D's site:

????????????

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ele...1100CT0501.pdf

Page 28 - panel label



Do you know what against code means???
Scuba Dave - you're right. I was thinking of the equipment grounds when I replied to this. My Bad. I should probably go to bed now, ey?
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:34 AM   #20
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie View Post
I've have seen panels designed to accept two wires. Breakers also! I fail to see why its a problem?
Two grounds under the same lug, yes, absolutely. Two neutrals, no. Per NEC 110.14, the panel would need to be specifically listed. I'd be really, really interested if you could show me a panel listed to allow two neutrals under the same lug. There might be one out there, but I haven't found it yet.

Like you, I have seen breakers listed to accept two phase conductors.

Here's an exerpt from an IAEI NEC handbook I have:
The installation rules for panelboards clearly specify that each grounded (neutral) conductor terminate in and individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor. An exception to this requirement will allow more than one where parallel conductors are installed as long as they terminate in a terminal identified for more than one conductor.

That is written based on manufacturer's listings and installation requirements. 110.14 defers to the manufacturer's listing. Interestingly, there is a photo in the handbook of a neutral bar with multiple neutrals under each lug and it states that it is a violation.
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Old 01-27-2009, 05:47 PM   #21
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
Two grounds under the same lug, yes, absolutely. Two neutrals, no. Per NEC 110.14, the panel would need to be specifically listed. I'd be really, really interested if you could show me a panel listed to allow two neutrals under the same lug. There might be one out there, but I haven't found it yet.

Like you, I have seen breakers listed to accept two phase conductors.

Here's an exerpt from an IAEI NEC handbook I have:
The installation rules for panelboards clearly specify that each grounded (neutral) conductor terminate in and individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor. An exception to this requirement will allow more than one where parallel conductors are installed as long as they terminate in a terminal identified for more than one conductor.

That is written based on manufacturer's listings and installation requirements. 110.14 defers to the manufacturer's listing. Interestingly, there is a photo in the handbook of a neutral bar with multiple neutrals under each lug and it states that it is a violation.
Makes me wonder what initiated a rule such as this? One question that comes to my mind is that its OK to terminate the 7 or more strands of stranded wire under a set screw, whereas 2 strands of 14/12 gauge is a problem! I have never been aware of an inspector objecting to this practice. Is it one of these discretionary rules that would be available to an inspector to use, for whatever reason. One poster said that an expanded neutral bar should be purchased. This may be the ultimate solution, but in real life, it ain't gonna happen! For instance the job has been quoted, everything is complete, the electrician is just finishing up and the boss is bugging him, to get out of there, as the job has run over, already! I know exactly what will happen. I've seen it happen over and over again!

Last edited by Wildie; 01-27-2009 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:39 PM   #22
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Code violation aside, to me that seems to protect the wire from falling off. I think the screw is not going to over heat. But Code is code..

As an home owner, I expect an inspector to inform me of such practice if it is not to code. For example, when I bought this home they had double lugged a microwave outlet at the breaker, that got written up and was fixed. Well, they did a poor job and just tapped into some random circuit instead of running a new circuit.

Later I found they wired the attic fan to the dining room light controlled by the dimmer, it is really stupid! So my attic fan isn't on until I turn on my dining room light, variable speed control, too
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Old 01-27-2009, 08:55 PM   #23
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Wire nut inside subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie View Post
One poster said that an expanded neutral bar should be purchased. This may be the ultimate solution, but in real life, it ain't gonna happen! For instance the job has been quoted, everything is complete, the electrician is just finishing up and the boss is bugging him, to get out of there, as the job has run over, already! I know exactly what will happen. I've seen it happen over and over again!
I had suggested calling Bryant and finding an expansion neutral buss. And in real life, if I were hiring an electrician to do this job, payment would be withheld until after a passed inspection. So regardless of how much the boss bugs, he isn't getting paid until it is done legally.

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