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Old 09-06-2008, 12:07 PM   #1
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


HI;
I am going to go ahead and put in my sub panel. I will update you with my details a bit later, along with photos of my box as promised.

I am running out to buy some wire. I Just want to make sure that there is nothing special I need to do with a if I am using a Ground fault / Arc fault breaker, i.e. no additional ground wire needed or anything? I have never used the ground fault / arc fault breakers before.

This like is going to run to my kitchen for my coffee setup. I am going to run 50 feet of #10 NM romex 3 wire from my new sub panel to the kitchen. (The wire can run in a area where it is safe to use NM romex and it will not be damaged) I just wanted to verify that there is no additional wiring needed due to using a GF / ARC fault breaker, such as an additional ground. So I plan to buy 50 feet 10-3 solid wire. Does this sound correct? It will feed a 30 amp 240. Which is huge overkill likely, but I don't have to have to upgrade it later when I get a new espresso machine, right now I have the floors open.

Thanks
Jamie

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Old 09-06-2008, 08:58 PM   #2
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


This circuit does not have to be GFCI or AFCI protected. AFCI requirements do not apply to kitchens and GFCI in residential kitchens is only required for 120volt 15 or 20 amp countertop receptacles.

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Old 09-07-2008, 11:10 AM   #3
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Are you installing a sub panel in your kitchen? Why do you need 10/3 going from a sub panel to the kitchen? I hope you understand the requirements for kitchens. The use of 10/2 does not reflect any kitchen requirement that I know of. You do not plan to use this 10/3 for one circuit do you? Is this a feeder or what?
I guess I do not understand your post.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:29 AM   #4
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


No special wire needed but 30 amps is NOT a huge overkill.


An appliance like your espresso machine is likely to draw close to 10 amps.

Add the toaster/coffee maker etc and it adds up quickly.

Microwaves are also a big draw.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:07 PM   #5
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
An appliance like your espresso machine is likely to draw close to 10 amps.

Add the toaster/coffee maker etc and it adds up quickly.

Microwaves are also a big draw.
Huh?

How will he legally be able to cord and plug all those appliances into a 30 amp circuit?

I'm under the impression that circuit is solely for the espresso machine.
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:29 PM   #6
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
This like is going to run to my kitchen for my coffee setup
That's like all I read
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:47 PM   #7
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cow View Post
Huh?

How will he legally be able to cord and plug all those appliances into a 30 amp circuit?

I'm under the impression that circuit is solely for the espresso machine.
I am under the impression that the circuit is solely for the espresso machine also, I assumed he is running a 30 amp 240 volt circuit for the espresso machine (per manufacturer instructions), but now that I think of it maybe we shouldn't assume.
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:29 PM   #8
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


As others have said, you don't need GFCI protection for this circuit if it is a dedicated 30A 240V circuit for the coffee machine. You also do not need to use 10/3 wire if it is a 240V only device.... 10/2 will work.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:20 PM   #9
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
Are you installing a sub panel in your kitchen? Why do you need 10/3 going from a sub panel to the kitchen? I hope you understand the requirements for kitchens. The use of 10/2 does not reflect any kitchen requirement that I know of. You do not plan to use this 10/3 for one circuit do you? Is this a feeder or what?
I guess I do not understand your post.
It is for one outlet / junction box -- to be either wired with a large appliance plug or hard wired . It will be for my espresso machine - and nothing else.
I am planing on getting a new machine. Not sure yet which model. However the kind of machines I am looking at spec 240, with between a 20 and 30 A dedicated circuit.

I guess what I was really getting at I kind of figured out what I should do, is that I was trying to figure out if I should run a ground and a neutral. I was trying to find out if the Arc Fault / Ground Fault on a 240 needs a neutral and a ground wire. I still am not positive, but decided it would be best to have a neutral and ground, so I bought 3 wire with ground (4 wire total 10 gage), I elected for NM, to limited structural changes necessary to install this (i.e. didn't want to have to cut though my joist for conduit vs using existing holes for the wire).

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Old 09-07-2008, 11:23 PM   #10
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
As others have said, you don't need GFCI protection for this circuit if it is a dedicated 30A 240V circuit for the coffee machine. You also do not need to use 10/3 wire if it is a 240V only device.... 10/2 will work.
Yes, just for the espresso machine, Sorry this was not clear.

Ok, so there is no need for GF/Arc fault on a appliance in a wet area? I thought it might be a good idea, but if it adds nothing, then I will save the money on the expensive GF / AF breaker.

I did buy 10/3 w ground, but I of course don't have to use all the wires if they are not necessary.

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Old 09-07-2008, 11:28 PM   #11
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cow View Post
Huh?

How will he legally be able to cord and plug all those appliances into a 30 amp circuit?

I'm under the impression that circuit is solely for the espresso machine.
The kitchen currently has 2 - 20A circuits in it, (alternating on the counter) the microwave was on a different circuit, but it was completely inappropriate and overloaded (wired in with the front outdoor outlet and lights). So I will likely drop a dedicated line for the microwave / range hood.
I also plan to add an additional 20A circuit due to the addition of working counter space on the other side of the kitchen - where it is likely that some high draw appliances will be run.

Jamie
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:51 PM   #12
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
It is for one outlet / junction box -- to be either wired with a large appliance plug or hard wired . It will be for my espresso machine - and nothing else.
I am planing on getting a new machine. Not sure yet which model. However the kind of machines I am looking at spec 240, with between a 20 and 30 A dedicated circuit.

I guess what I was really getting at I kind of figured out what I should do, is that I was trying to figure out if I should run a ground and a neutral. I was trying to find out if the Arc Fault / Ground Fault on a 240 needs a neutral and a ground wire. I still am not positive, but decided it would be best to have a neutral and ground, so I bought 3 wire with ground (4 wire total 10 gage), I elected for NM, to limited structural changes necessary to install this (i.e. didn't want to have to cut though my joist for conduit vs using existing holes for the wire).

Jamie
If this is the case, then no GFCI or AFCI is required by code. If you want to, that is certaintly an option and is ok to do so, but it is not required to be legal.
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:59 AM   #13
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Holy must be some expresso, 240 volts?? profanity removed May be benefical to post the specs of this monster expresso machine so the folks here can see what the supply and demand are. A laundry dryers uses a 30A circuit, cant fanthom a expresso machine requiring up to 30A. Double profanity removed

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Old 09-20-2009, 08:15 AM   #14
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Wire Needed for GF / Arc Fault breaker


Quote:
Originally Posted by ~FYE~ View Post
Holy must be some expresso, 240 volts?? May be benefical to post the specs of this monster expresso machine so the folks here can see what the supply and demand are. A laundry dryers uses a 30A circuit, cant fanthom a expresso machine requiring up to 30A.
~Fye~
The espresso machine has probably been up and running for about a year now.

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