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Old 04-20-2010, 09:39 PM   #1
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Hello;

I visited my brothers condo in Madison today. It is in a very high end neighborhood. It was built about 4 years ago. I don't know the exact price, but it is about a $200,000 ish condo. Overall the craftsmanship and quality is fairly high.

The bed room & bath room are on a 15A circuit - both are on the same circuit. There is no GFCI in the bath. I count at least 3 violations.

These are such basic things, how could an electrician though it was acceptable to install a setup like this? The 20A, GFCI, dedicated bath circuit have been code for many code cycles now right?

How could things this basic have been missed on inspection in a large city on a large construction project?

Also of interest, in his storage room hanging across the ceiling is a group of about a dozen service entrance cables all out in the open, presumable on there way from the meters to the panel in each unit. I gave my brother a strong warning about the dangers of having anything near those cables that could damage them. (i.e. shelves are at that same height 2 feet away).

Jamie

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Old 04-20-2010, 09:51 PM   #2
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


a couple of possibilities:

Madison has their own code that does not fully accept the NEC

the inspector saw enough good stuff that he did not scrutinize everything as well as necessary to catch this

but:

are you sure there is no GFCI in the bath? If there is more than one bath, you might check to see if one bat is not fed through the other utilizing just one GFCI.


the circuit that the bed and bath shared: did it feed the power and lights in the bath?

but your service entrance cables sounds like a problem. Are you sure there is not a main service outside these are split off from outside?

I have to look but I think running the supply for one unit through another is a no-no

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Old 04-20-2010, 10:32 PM   #3
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
Hello;

I visited my brothers condo in Madison today. It is in a very high end neighborhood. It was built about 4 years ago. I don't know the exact price, but it is about a $200,000 ish condo. Overall the craftsmanship and quality is fairly high.

The bed room & bath room are on a 15A circuit - both are on the same circuit. There is no GFCI in the bath. I count at least 3 violations.

These are such basic things, how could an electrician though it was acceptable to install a setup like this? The 20A, GFCI, dedicated bath circuit have been code for many code cycles now right?

How could things this basic have been missed on inspection in a large city on a large construction project?

Also of interest, in his storage room hanging across the ceiling is a group of about a dozen service entrance cables all out in the open, presumable on there way from the meters to the panel in each unit. I gave my brother a strong warning about the dangers of having anything near those cables that could damage them. (i.e. shelves are at that same height 2 feet away).

Jamie
James see my comment below this may turn you upside down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
a couple of possibilities:

Madison has their own code that does not fully accept the NEC

the inspector saw enough good stuff that he did not scrutinize everything as well as necessary to catch this

but:

are you sure there is no GFCI in the bath? If there is more than one bath, you might check to see if one bat is not fed through the other utilizing just one GFCI.


the circuit that the bed and bath shared: did it feed the power and lights in the bath?

but your service entrance cables sounds like a problem. Are you sure there is not a main service outside these are split off from outside?

I have to look but I think running the supply for one unit through another is a no-no
Ok Nap I will fill you in of Metro De Madison { city of Madison } we do use both State and NEC codes and yes we are on 2008 NEC with very little modifcations.

James.,

I do not know how that electrician pull that kind of stunt with wiring set up and there are few codes that need to be addressed here.

The supply conductor { or SER Cables } can not run from one unit to other unit unless it have a 2 HFW { hours firewall } so the only legit way is run thur the hallway or common way.

I am kinda suprised how the inspectors can miss this by kilometer !!!

Normally the bathroom lights can be tied to the bedroom circuit however the bathroom RCD { GFCI } it must be on it own circuit so you will have to look at the RCD recepetcale or RCDB {GFCI breaker } one of the two will be legit.

It will be nice if you took a photo of the service entrance cable if they are legit SER they should be protected or covered up one of the two.

I will fill more details later once I verify the Metro De Madison codes.

Merci,Marc
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:35 PM   #4
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
are you sure there is no GFCI in the bath? If there is more than one bath, you might check to see if one bat is not fed through the other utilizing just one GFCI.
There is a GFCI in the other bath. My dad tested everything last time he was down because he changed a couple switches out. He said that the guest bath, outlet and all is on the same breaker. I asked him that because I wondered if they used the GFCI from the master bath to cover it. I even check for an outlet in the cabinet -just the one. I can see this being explained by the previous owner changing it, but not the other problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
the circuit that the bed and bath shared: did it feed the power and lights in the bath?
Yep, outlet, lights, fan, plus the bedroom.

One other things I found interesting, there were 3 20A breakers labeled for kitchen outlets. I checked every outlet I could find, and only came up with one GFCI for the kitchen.

I checked, no GFCI or arc fault breakers - all basic BR breakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
but your service entrance cables sounds like a problem. Are you sure there is not a main service outside these are split off from outside?
Service comes in underground from a pad. The meters are presumably inside a locked room in the basement (no where else for them to be). Then next to that room is my brothers storage area / work room. They all (dozen service cables) come out of the wall of the locked room near the top of the wall into my brothers room, travel a couple feet, I think there was one hanger wire chase style brace there, then they went up into the ceiling. Still several feet of service entrance cable x12 in an place that could be subject to physical damage. (i'm thinking about my brother moving his metal shelf around in the room and accidentally nailing a SE cable, -- he had no clue what they were)


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I have to look but I think running the supply for one unit through another is a no-no
The panel in his unit is a 100A with Main, since he has no access to the meter room, I am making a guess that they are just meters and that the only protection is at the panel in the unit. But I don't know that for a fact. If there was OCP in the meter room and it tripped prior to his tripping, he would have no way to reset it.


One other things I noticed, not sure if it is allowed, but the iron gas pipe switches to CSST in the parking garage, and it is all exposed from where it transitions to a couple feet away where it enters the ceiling, One good accidental thwack while unloading a 2x4 from a car....
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:48 PM   #5
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
It will be nice if you took a photo of the service entrance cable if they are legit SER they should be protected or covered up one of the two.
I don't get down there that often, but I will make sure to get some photos to share next time I am there.

Unless my dad was wrong, he said he tested the bath outlet and it was on the same circuit as the bed and the lights. The breakers all looked the same, they looked just like the basic BR style breaker in a maybe 24 spot panel with main. No test or reset buttons on the breakers.

Thanks
Jamie
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:02 PM   #6
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
I don't get down there that often, but I will make sure to get some photos to share next time I am there.
please do if you do go next time

Quote:
Unless my dad was wrong, he said he tested the bath outlet and it was on the same circuit as the bed and the lights. The breakers all looked the same, they looked just like the basic BR style breaker in a maybe 24 spot panel with main. No test or reset buttons on the breakers.

Thanks
Jamie
Just a basic BR seriť breakers ???

Now I am instering to see what the heck is going on sound like someone did cut the corner on code and this is a serious matter here.

And if I did see that place for sure I will not hestine to call the inspector to give them what the crap report to see why someone done like that.


For myself I will never let that kind of situation happend like that.

{ and prepare for my French cussing going on as well }


Merci,Marc
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:11 PM   #7
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


The cables in his storage room are not service feeders but are feeders for each of the suites.

The couple condos we have done, have invovled running the feeder suites through the parkcade(which could end up being someones storage room). Sometimes there is just no other way to do it. If it is exposed it should have an armour jacket to protect it.

Regarding the GFI, the bathrooms defitenyl should be, that rule has been around a while. If the kitchen ones are not maybe the prints were approved before that rule came into effect and thus since it wasn't priced for GFI(due to the rules that were in place of time bidding) then there will be no GFI.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:44 PM   #8
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Darren.,

Just give you a head up with Wisconsin electrial code the bathroom do required the RCD { GFCI } senice early 80's and it used to be tied with either outdoor receptale or garage receptales but not any more senice mid 90's it got very strict with it so the Kitchen must have it own RCD while bathroom receptles must have RCD and I belive it should be almost parallel with your Canada codes.

Merci, Marc
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:47 PM   #9
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
.


One other things I noticed, not sure if it is allowed, but the iron gas pipe switches to CSST in the parking garage, and it is all exposed from where it transitions to a couple feet away where it enters the ceiling, One good accidental thwack while unloading a 2x4 from a car....
There is no way it will allow like that if the parking garge is served with few other cars and per state codes any exposed gaz pipes it is NOT allowed to run CSST espcally in parking garage area this is not allowed at all.

If the inspector see that he will give a heckva a roit act on that one.

Merci,Marc
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:04 AM   #10
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


I have a question.

If you get another inspector to inspect it, and it doesn't pass inspection. Would the other inspector be in fault, and would you need to get that problem solved?

Also, if it's a new house/condo. Would house warranty cover it?

I noticed my friends house has the same situation. Bathroom plug not GFCI protected. Dedicated 20A kitchen plug by sink faucet not GFCI protected with no GFI breaker on panel.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:11 AM   #11
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


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I have a question.

If you get another inspector to inspect it, and it doesn't pass inspection. Would the other inspector be in fault, and would you need to get that problem solved?

Also, if it's a new house/condo. Would house warranty cover it?

I noticed my friends house has the same situation. Bathroom plug not GFCI protected. Dedicated 20A kitchen plug by sink faucet not GFCI protected with no GFI breaker on panel.
That is good question .,,

Ok from my past experince if the oringal inspector did check and he " pass " it and get the other inspector and that inspector fail that inspection like give you a red flag or a note to fix { depending on how serious it is }
and with any failed jobs most case the inspector will cite the code numbers.

If this is new house it will go back to the contractor whom pull the permit.

now for your last part about the RCD { GFCI } how old this home is if pretty new like newer than 1980 or later you should have RCD there in few spots as like near breaker box or outdoor recetpale or in garage or other oddball place where you don't use often even behind the box or whatever it is behind of it.

This item it very easy to fix all it depending on the way the circuit runs and how deep the orignal box { just don't be suprised some older home just don't have much room for RCD at all }

Merci,Marc
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:49 AM   #12
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


a 4 year old building;

I suspect bro will foot the bill for anything in his condo and the condo association will end up footing the bill for the stuff that involves multiple units (the SE cable problem) unless there is a manufacturer warranty that is still in effect.





Hey, I know our local union is advertising this 5 year warranty on resi installations. Maybe if the contractor was a union contractor they have the same warranty. If so, I would be knocking on the local union office door.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:41 AM   #13
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


Marc the reason I mentioned the GFI in the kitchen because the first condo I did there was no GFI in the kitchen but accoridng to the code at that time it was required. I asked the foreman about it and the new code came into effect halfway through the job so they weren't required to put them in.

Our codes are close but not exactly the same, for us anything within 1.5M of the sink needs the GFI, anything outside of that does not have to be. And our bathrooms plugs can be put onto a convenice outlet circuit, thats one of the rules I wish they would change.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:13 AM   #14
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


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Originally Posted by humberguy View Post
I noticed my friends house has the same situation. Bathroom plug not GFCI protected. Dedicated 20A kitchen plug by sink faucet not GFCI protected with no GFI breaker on panel.
The GFI protection may be installed elsewhere in the circuit. A receptacle in the powder room may have the actual GFI device and the bathroom is downstream of that protection.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:44 AM   #15
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Why would this have been allowed to happen and pass inspection?


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That is good question .,,



now for your last part about the RCD { GFCI } how old this home is if pretty new like newer than 1980 or later you should have RCD there in few spots as like near breaker box or outdoor recetpale or in garage or other oddball place where you don't use often even behind the box or whatever it is behind of it.

This item it very easy to fix all it depending on the way the circuit runs and how deep the orignal box { just don't be suprised some older home just don't have much room for RCD at all }

Merci,Marc

My friends house is the most 5 years old. Im just curious how some things pass inspection.

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