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Old 07-09-2012, 03:48 PM   #16
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


Quote:
Originally Posted by sixspeed View Post
Take a look at Leviton 51120-1
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Produ...minisite=10251


I quote from their installation sheet (DI-000-51120-00E), under Wiring Instructions, paragraph 5:
"Twenty-Amp (20A) circuit breakers are recommended, and may share SPD device and branch circuit leads."

Caveat: make sure your circuit breaker ALLOWS for such connection.
(I.e. Square D QO)
Sixspeed...thanks for correcting me on that. That Leviton is the one I was thinking of....but some reason I was thinking it was intended to be used with 30 or 50A breakers. I must be thinking of the surge protectors that also let you use it as a CB.

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Old 07-10-2012, 04:32 PM   #17
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
Im just saying, do you seriously think this will change the operation of the surge protector?
No surge protector does protection. Either a protector connects short to what does protection. Or a protector is useless.

What defines protection? How good is your earth ground? Protectors are dumb simple science. The art (and most all of your attention) must focus on what actually does the protection - single point earth ground.

For most, a few ten foot copper clad ground rods are more than sufficient. For others, a 30 foot ground rod may be necessary. For others, the 30 foot ground rod does nothing better.

Protection is defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That means most of your sentences discuss or ask about earth ground.

Protectors can be installed in the circuit breaker, attached to the breaker box, installed in the meter pan, or rented for a few dollars a month from the utility. Protectors are the dumb and simple stuff. Protection - earth ground - is the art. Are the most critical questions to ask.

How good is the protector? That is only defined by one critically important item. How good is your earth ground?

BTW, that is only the secondary protection layer. Also inspect your primary protection layer. What is the only item that defines each layer of protection? A picture demonstrates what in your primary protection system must be inspected - what defines protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:22 PM   #18
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


I have used a WHSS that mounts on the side of the panel. The wires go through knock-outs. It works if there is room on the side of the panel.
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:53 AM   #19
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


Exactly...! Note though... If your house has the best ground system - i.e., the lowest Ohmic value to ground, then any lightening strike, no matter how far away...(within reason)...will "entice" the strike to use your grounding system to shunt the millions of joules of power to earth...(in the form of a nano, or pico-second duration spike), that will...melt through...micron-thick solid-state integrated-circuit chip barriers, faster than, and with more ease, than Obama, (on Halloween night), dressed as a nun, trying to loot the Vatican's sacred wine cellar, on the auspices that guzzling the grape...will create more jobs in the "treading" industry...
Ooow! Wait 'til Michele gits here hands on the pontiff...!
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:42 PM   #20
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


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Originally Posted by quantumspores View Post
Hi Folks,

I am looking for a whole house surge protector that does NOT require the use of extra breakers. Most of these devices want you to wire them in to two separate breakers, but alas, I have none. Is there anything on the market that will fit my needs?

Thanks!
JRS
Yes there is. You need to first look for a "Type 1" UL listed surge protective device. These products are UL listed for and NEC Art 285 installation requirements allow them to be installed line or load side of the OCP. A type 2 SPD may or may not have internal OCP and NEC does not allow them for line side installation. So a type 2 listed SPD that does not have internal OCP is relying on the breaker to provide it. Most manuf will still recommend you to install a type 1 listed product on a 2-pole breaker because it is the easiest means of disconnecting the surge protector if it needs to be serviced. I would recommend tandem breakers to solve your spacial issues, remember surge protection is not a "load" it only draws current during a surge event except for maybe 2 milliamps to illuminate an indication light. Otherwise hook your type 1 SPD up to the main lugs and you will be protected. Fair warning I am a technical manuf customer service rep (I am the tech support you call for surge protection install questions) and of course recommend my product APT part #S50A120V2P. Ultimately any Type 1 listed surge protector can be installed line side. Answers to surge protection FAQ's like this are available on my "aptsurge" website. Do not forget to protect low voltage (phone and coaxial) signals b/c connected equipment (tv's and computers) will have an unprotected pathway.
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:29 PM   #21
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


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Originally Posted by surgeknowitall View Post
Do not forget to protect low voltage (phone and coaxial) signals b/c connected equipment (tv's and computers) will have an unprotected pathway.
Not true anywhere in North America. Those lines have always been required to be surge protected by many codes.

What is the best protector on coaxial signal wire? The 'required by code' wire from that cable to earth ground. How good is that protection? Well, how good is the earth ground? How short is the connection? Useful protector answers constantly discuss the item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules ... harmlessly.

Code also demands every telephone wire be connected to earth at the NID (where their wires connect to yours). All homes must have this. And again. How good is the protection? Well, how responsible was the homeowner in maintaining that short connection to a better earth ground?

Why are cable TV and telephone appliances often damaged? Once inside the building, then a surge must find earth ground. Some of the best connections to earth are cable and telephone appliances. Because those wires already have well earthed protectors. The outgoing current path is often where cable TV and telephone appliances are damaged. Because a surge far down the street was connected to those appliances by a
negligent homeowner. Due to a non-existent or improperly earthed 'whole house' protector on AC mains.

It can never be repeated enough. Either a surge is earthed harmlessly outside the building. Or that surge will hunt for earth ground destructively via appliances. Telephone and cable wires must have what is best protection. Protection is compromised if a homeowner does not earth a 'whole house' protector on AC mains. Destructive and outgoing path is often via a telephone or cable wire.

Every useful protector recommendation discusses the only item that makes any protector effective. Single point earth ground defines both a 'secondary' and a 'primary' protection layer. A useful recommendation will discuss existing and superior protection, required long before computers existed, on all telephone and coaxial utility wires.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:21 AM   #22
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


Quote:
Not true anywhere in North America. Those lines have always been required to be surge protected by many codes.
I am going to recommend you read through the IEEE guide on how to protect your home. Focus on the low voltage protaction section of the quide. For any one with questions about grounding and surge they have a section on that topic and you'll learn about ground potential rise.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Then I'd recommend you read NIST's "Surge Happens". You can visit NEMAsurge after that and for good measure State Farms website has an excellent laymens explanation of the importance of surge and how to protect your home. Let me know if there are any other resources on surge that you'd like. I have dozens.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #23
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


Quote:
Originally Posted by surgeknowitall View Post
I am going to recommend you read through the IEEE guide on how to protect your home.
I'm going to recommend that you do this stuff before citing yourself as knowledgeable. Had you done this stuff, then you knew telephone and cable installation must already have superior protection. And you would not be citing a woefully incomplete source.



All phone lines already have a protector installed in the NID. Apparently I must show what you failed to inspect. Why is the NID grounded? Did you even ask? The Wisconsin PUC describes what you must know:
Quote:
Aside from being the device where the telephone service wire connects to the inside wire, the NID also provides electrical protection through the electrical grounding system on the customer's premises, so any work you do on the NID could have an affect on how these electrical systems are grounded.
That protection is required in FCC, BellCore Standards, NFPA, and elsewhere. A layman's summary sheet would not discuss it.



A picture of the required telephone protector long before PCs existed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Demarc2.JPG
Anyone with experience knows of the 'carbons'. Today, all phone lines feature a superior semiconductor based protector inside the NID. A datasheet of that part that you knew does not exist:
http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/2378-35-HS(155HS)revC.pdf

Read, for example, Motorola's Standards and Guide for Communication Sites. Regulations that require telephone line protectors are summarized:
Quote:
The SPD shall be installed at the entrance point into any building and within close proximity to the electrical service entrance and the master ground bus bar. In lightning prone areas, a primary SPD shall also be installed on each end of an inter-building cable run to help ensure that high energy is not allowed to penetrate the building interior (NFPA 70-2005, Article 800.90(A)).
They even provided code you were suppose to read before posting. NEC's requirement for that always existing telephone protector:
Quote:
shall consist of an arrester connected between each line conductor and ground

Article 820 of the NEC defines protection required for all coax (cable TV) service. No protector reqired. Best protection is a wire connection to earth.

Read what is required and exists for telephone and cable protection; such as FCC Part 68 or UL1459. Then say why (with numbers) that superior protection does not exist. If not yet obvious, I have quite a few decades of field and design experience. Please do not insult me by citing an obviously incomplete layman's summary sheet.

Last edited by westom; 07-13-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:06 PM   #24
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


I am not at all interested in a pissing contest over who knows more about the subject of low voltage. I am woefully lacking the penis that requires me to do so. You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault. If that were the case then why is it that every day I speak to consumers/homeowners, electricians and even engineers who have problems because this is not the case??? State code all day but the glaring reality is that there are violations to every code all over North America.

I think you are doing people a disservice by telling them hey don't worry the utility has got it covered, thumbs up you are protected. And will reiterate to any one seeking a whole home surge protection strategy that they protect all possible service entrances electrical, phone and coax with surge protectors and subsequent localized protection throughout their home.

Westom you and I are just going to stand on opposite sides of the fence on this one and let the people reading these posts make their own decision on who's advice they will follow.
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:51 PM   #25
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You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault.
Understanding protection means understanding why most homes have no protection other than what is inside appliances. You did not read (or comprehend) what was posted.

Why are telephone and cable appliances so easily damaged? Due to superior protection on those wires, then that becomes a best (and destructive) path to earth. Superior protection on telephone and cable is compromised by no earthed protector on AC electric.

What provides protection? Earth ground. Who is responsible for that earthing? The homeowner. How many homeowners know that? A question for every homeowner here.

Protection means both meeting and exceeding code requirements. You are correct about contractors - even electricians. They typically have little grasp of what does protection. Some still install incorrectly. Best solution (that also costs less money) is to fix their defect.

Informed contractors install protection when the footings are poured. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How to increase protection? Upgrade what does protection; what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground.

Some facilities have superior protection without a protector. Protectors may not be required. But single point earth ground - the protection - is always required.

Protection means energy earthed; is not inside. A concept well understood and repeatedly proven for over 100 years. A protectors is only as effective as its earth ground.
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Old 07-14-2012, 02:21 AM   #26
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


Quote:
Originally Posted by surgeknowitall View Post
I am not at all interested in a pissing contest over who knows more about the subject of low voltage. I am woefully lacking the penis that requires me to do so. You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault. If that were the case then why is it that every day I speak to consumers/homeowners, electricians and even engineers who have problems because this is not the case??? State code all day but the glaring reality is that there are violations to every code all over North America.

I think you are doing people a disservice by telling them hey don't worry the utility has got it covered, thumbs up you are protected. And will reiterate to any one seeking a whole home surge protection strategy that they protect all possible service entrances electrical, phone and coax with surge protectors and subsequent localized protection throughout their home.

Westom you and I are just going to stand on opposite sides of the fence on this one and let the people reading these posts make their own decision on who's advice they will follow.
Hurrah...! I second the motion! There's way too much [trade] snobbery around here.

Last edited by kontoose; 07-14-2012 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Typo.
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Old 07-14-2012, 02:32 AM   #27
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Understanding protection means understanding why most homes have no protection other than what is inside appliances. You did not read (or comprehend) what was posted.

Why are telephone and cable appliances so easily damaged? Due to superior protection on those wires, then that becomes a best (and destructive) path to earth. Superior protection on telephone and cable is compromised by no earthed protector on AC electric.

What provides protection? Earth ground. Who is responsible for that earthing? The homeowner. How many homeowners know that? A question for every homeowner here.

Protection means both meeting and exceeding code requirements. You are correct about contractors - even electricians. They typically have little grasp of what does protection. Some still install incorrectly. Best solution (that also costs less money) is to fix their defect.

Informed contractors install protection when the footings are poured. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How to increase protection? Upgrade what does protection; what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground.

Some facilities have superior protection without a protector. Protectors may not be required. But single point earth ground - the protection - is always required.

Protection means energy earthed; is not inside. A concept well understood and repeatedly proven for over 100 years. A protectors is only as effective as its earth ground.
Thank you! Stickboy laughed at this earlier - Charlatan.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:29 AM   #28
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Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers


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Thank you! Stickboy laughed at this earlier - Charlatan.
I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here... it's the simple things that go way over minds that contain too much information.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here...
Which is why Lowes and Home Depot sell these for homes. It's too complicated for a homeowner. Too expensive ($50). Too difficult to understand. Actually does protection even from direct lightning strikes. No homeowner wants that. The least technically informed among us said so. It must be true.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here... it's the simple things that go way over minds that contain too much information.
You can't hope to be right all of the time...! So, when in the wrong...simply admit it - like now.

(I wonder if Lows or Homedepot sell surge protectors for narcissism...)?

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