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Old 10-25-2012, 08:25 AM   #16
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Whole House and Secondary Surge Protection


Extend the groundings of the cable TV and telephone demarkation units to the (main) grounding electrode system using additional lengths of #6* copper wire and clamps.

* Use table 250-66 in the NEC for the proper size; the #6 is good for services up to 100 amps and #4 up to 150 amps when going from a water pipe to the panel. On the way to a ground rod, #6 copper is the maximum size you will ever need.

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:57 AM   #17
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Whole House and Secondary Surge Protection


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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Any protector that does not make that low impedance connection is, well, according to the NIST document:
Westom's point is that plug-in protectors, which are not well earthed, can not possibly work.

Immediately following westom's quote from the NIST surge guide is a list of surge protectors that can be used.
Number 6 is "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?' "

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
IEEE page 42 figure 8 even shows a protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively via a nearby TV.
Anyone with minimal mental abilities can discover what the IEEE guide says in this example:
- A plug-in protector protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- The illustration "shows a very common improper use of multiport protectors"
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the earthing system at the power service that is far too long. In that case the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector."
- westom's favored power service protector would provide absolutely NO protection.

It is simply a lie that the plug-in protector in the IEEE example damages the second TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
That protector was not properly earthed.
As the IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) plug in protectors do not work primarily by earthing surges. Earthing occurs elsewhere. Plug-in protectors work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

To do that all wires going to a set of protected equipment have to go through the plug-in protector.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Coax cable needs no protector. Best protection is a direct wire connection to earth. A protector is only needed when that wire cannot connect directly to earth. Cable company should have already earthed that cable.
The NEC just requires a ground block that allows the coax shield to be earthed.

"Needs no protector"? The IEEE surge guide says “there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV.” And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
bud wasted no time posting cheap shots.
Cheap shots were from the IEEE and NIST.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
He only joined this forum because I posted here.
Westom believes surge protection must directly use earthing. Some of what westom posts is very good. Some is complete nonsense. Everything westom posts about plug-in protectors is complete nonsense.

Westom is evangelical in his beliefs, and googles for "surge" in his compulsive crusade to eliminate the scourge of plug-in protectors.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
He has been doing cheap shots for almost ten years.
I first saw westom's far more recently than 10 years ago.

But westom has been compulsively posting misinformation for 10 years?

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
His job is a sales promoter of protectors
If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie. The only association I have with surge protection is I am using some surge protectors.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Ask him for those manufacturer specs. He will never provide them.
A ten year old could google for specs.
I have often posted specs. So have others. Westom always ignores them

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
This discussion will become increasingly nasty as bud does what he does best. Post mockery and insult.
Westom is mocked and insulted by the IEEE and NIST. They are both nasty.

Check the sources that agree with westom that plug-in protectors do not work. There are none.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Airplanes regularly get hit by lightning.
Are they crashing?
Do they drag an earthing chain?
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:05 AM   #18
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Whole House and Secondary Surge Protection


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
That NIST document was exceptionally helpful.

I had planned on adding a coaxial protector and a telephone protector at the demarks. The multi-protection device shown on page 19, figure 3 is of interest. Does one of these devices provide any more protection than protectors in each demark tied back as in figure 2?
Phone should have a protector provided by the phone company. The cable company should have provided an entry ground block. As detailed in another post, a ground block does not limit the voltage from the center conductor to the shield. The installers should have connected both these entry protectors back to a common connection point on the power earthing system.

The advantage the "device" may provide is it guarantees the cable and phone protectors have a close connection to the power earthing system, and it limits the voltage from the coax center conductor to the shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
Last... my current cable demark is attached to an exterior clamp on my service panel door and my telephone to a galvanized water pipe. Would I get better results if I tie into the neutral/ground bar as show in figure 2?
I am not impressed with a connection to the service panel door.

Telephone entry protectors are often connected to the water pipe, but the water pipe has to be an earthing electrode for the power system. It may or may not be a good way to connect.

What you want is a short ground wire from the phone and cable entry protectors to a common connection on the power earthing system. You also want a short distance from the power service N-G bond to the common connection point. In the event of large surge currents to earth the building "ground' can rise thousands of volts above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the protection is that all wires - power/cable/phone/dish/... - rise together. An example of a connection from a cable entry ground block that is too long is in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30.

The connection in fig 2 is not to the N-G bar, but to an "intersystem bonding point" which is connected to the earthing wire from the power service to the earthing electrode. The "intersystem bonding point" is the "common connection point" in the paragraph above. How you make the connections depends on where the entry protectors are and where there is a convenient connection to the earthing system. The connection can be with a "split bolt" to the earthing wire, or there are now intersystem bonding bars that attach to the existing earthing wire.

If the phone and cable enter the building near the power service these connections are pretty easy. If the cable, for instance, enters on the opposite side of the house (as in the IEEE example) you can not get a short connection. In that case you could put a second ground block near the power service, and distribute the cable wires from there, or the "device" is an excellent fix.

For a normal installation, the ground wires from the entry protectors need to be #14 or larger. If you have an intersystem bonding point, as in fig 2, the bonding wire to the earthing system is #6, as shown in fig 2. The current the wires might carry is limited by the size of the phone and cable conductors that are being earthed.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
You describe grounding that makes damage easier. 'Whole house' protector for AC electric, protector installed for free by your telco (inside the NID), and a wire (no protector) for coax cable all meet and be earthed at the same electrode. Single point ground.
So... do I need to have the coax ground service panel clamp removed and bonded directly to the grounding bar? You still haven't answered that question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Apparently you have described multiple grounds.
No. I have not described multiple grounds. My water and gas pipes are both bonded to the ground bus in the main panel. I have only one buried rod.



You have posted on many other forums, always specfically on this topic. How do I know you don't have an axe to grind, just as you claim 'bud--' does?

I'm having a hard time understanding you. Are you using translation software?
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:31 AM   #20
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Whole House and Secondary Surge Protection


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
No. I have not described multiple grounds. My water and gas pipes are both bonded to the ground bus in the main panel. I have only one buried rod.
Those are electrically different grounds. The expression was so important as to be repeated: 'less than 3 meters'. Even the electrode and breaker box ground bus are electrically different. How different? How long is the interconnecting wire? How many feet from the water pipe through the breaker box to a ground rod? Every foot longer increases the electrical difference.

Impedance is also why increased separation between an appliance and that earth ground connection (or protector) also increases protection. Wire impedance is why your water pipe and ground rod are electrically separate; are different grounds.

A wire must connect coax low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same electrode used by an AC electric 'whole house' protector and the telco 'installed for free' protector. If necessary, reroute the coax to make its earth ground connection as short as possible. Every foot shorter lowers the impedance to earth.

In some locations, one ground rod is sufficient. In others, that single point ground is expanded by more rods. In some cases, a single point ground is a buried wire encircling the building. Factors such as geology determine what is sufficient. At minimum, most earth at least two ground rods more than 8 feet deep.

Last edited by westom; 10-26-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:31 AM   #21
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Whole House and Secondary Surge Protection


When a water pipe qualifies as a grounding electrode (is metal exiting the building underground for at least ten feet) it must be part of the grounding electrode system (connected to the main panel neutral/ground bus bar).

It is clearly not practical to move the panel to within so many feet/meters of the water pipe or vice versa so we may ignore distance and simply run the grounding electrode conductor(s) of the needed size.

A gas pipe does not qualify as a grounding electrode but the entire gas plumbing system needs to be bounded to the electrical ground. If there is a gas appliance that uses electricity and is wired up with a grounded circuit then that will serve as the needed bonding. Otherwise running a "grounding electrode conductor" (here more properly called a grounding jumper) will also satisfy this.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
When a water pipe qualifies as a grounding electrode (is metal exiting the building underground for at least ten feet) it must be part of the grounding electrode system (connected to the main panel neutral/ground bus bar).
My galvanized plumbing exits through the rim joist, then changes to Sch 40 PVC before diving under the lawn to the city hookup. None of my galvanized piping comes closer than 12" above dirt (24" in the crawl space). Does this change things?

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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
It is clearly not practical to move the panel to within so many feet/meters of the water pipe or vice versa so we may ignore distance and simply run the grounding electrode conductor(s) of the needed size.
The piping runs within 3' horizontally of the main panel (5-6' "as the wire flies ). Is this close enough?

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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
A gas pipe does not qualify as a grounding electrode but the entire gas plumbing system needs to be bounded to the electrical ground. If there is a gas appliance that uses electricity and is wired up with a grounded circuit then that will serve as the needed bonding. Otherwise running a "grounding electrode conductor" (here more properly called a grounding jumper) will also satisfy this.
Indeed bonded via jumper at the grounding bar. Total length is maybe 3'. Also, gas range installed on a grounded circuit.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
It is clearly not practical to move the panel to within so many feet/meters of the water pipe or vice versa so we may ignore distance and simply run the grounding electrode conductor(s) of the needed size.
Nobody said anything about moving a breaker box. And nobody said anything about using a water pipe as the single point earth ground. Grounding to meet code (human safety) is electrically different from grounds for transistor safety. Same ground 'system' performs multiple tasks.

Code says some other superior ground must exist. Water pipe cannot be the only earthing electrode. That other earth ground is typically the single point earth ground. For example, a 10 foot ground rod is located so that a breaker box connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot'). The NID (telco install for free protector) and a ground wire from coax cable also make a low impedance (ie wire without sharp bends) connection.

An AC utility demonstrates how to kludge the single point ground:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Code says a water pipe muct connect to the breaker box typically using a quarter inch, solid, bare copper wire. That is ground for human safety. (Gas pipes are or are not grounded depending on local codes or gas company requirements.) Wire length is less relevant to human safety grounds. But when the same earthing protects transistors, wire length to the single point earth ground must also be low impedance (ie wire not inside metallic conduit). Every foot shorter lowers impedance.

For example, if the wire from breaker box to an earth ground electrode goes up over the foundation and down to a ground rod, then that connection meets code requirements. And has excessive impedance. Wire would have sharp bends over the foundation. Should be shorter by going through the foundation and down to earth. Then that ground wire is also not bundled with other non-grounding wires. Also important when earthing for transistor safety; irrelevant to code and human safety.

If the surge current connects to earth before entering a building, then that current is not hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Single point earth ground with low impedance connections (ie no wire splices) is important for transistor protection.

Last edited by westom; 10-26-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
So... do I need to have the coax ground service panel clamp removed and bonded directly to the grounding bar? You still haven't answered that question.
There are a number of locations the entry protector ground wires can be attached to the earthing system. One of them is NOT the panel ground bar. One of them is "the service equipment enclosure". A clamp on your service panel door qualifies, but IMHO is rather schlocky. (Your cable provider may not be fond of you moving the connection.)

My general preference is to attach, near the panel, to a wire that goes to an earthing electrode. The NIST guide fig 2 attaches to an earthing wire to a ground rod. It is not near the panel, but is near the entry protectors which are on the wall outside the house.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
No. I have not described multiple grounds. My water and gas pipes are both bonded to the ground bus in the main panel. I have only one buried rod.
AlanJ has a good post on earthing electrodes. IMHO it is likely your water service pipe was metal and was replaced by PVC. The metal service pipe would have been an earthing electrode.

The connection to the water pipe by the phone company was compliant when installed if the pipe was an earthing electrode.

Ground rods are one of the worst earthing electrodes (but are very easy to install).

I did not understand AlanJ's comment on moving the panel the same as you did.

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You have posted on many other forums, always specfically on this topic. How do I know you don't have an axe to grind, just as you claim 'bud--' does?
Westom has a very limited view of surge protection and he compulsively posts his opinions all over the internet. Some of what he says is very good. Some of it is very bad. Some, for instance, contradicts the IEEE and NIST surge guides (as I have pointed out).

I am, for what it is worth, a licenced master electrician.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #25
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If the water pipe exiting the house turns to plastic before going underground then it does not qualify as a grounding electrode. The metal parts of the plumbing system should be grounded, for example using the same #6 ground wire from the panel but here that is clamped on after the meter.

Without metal pipe going underground, the grounding clamp from the cable TV system attached to the pipe doesn't do any good until an additional wire is run from there to the panel ground (if not already).
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
If the water pipe exiting the house turns to plastic before going underground then it does not qualify as a grounding electrode. The metal parts of the plumbing system should be grounded, for example using the same #6 ground wire from the panel but here that is clamped on after the meter.

Without metal pipe going underground, the grounding clamp from the cable TV system attached to the pipe doesn't do any good until an additional wire is run from there to the panel ground (if not already).
I think you've gotten a bit mixed up over the course of the thread.

The cable TV has a single 12 awg THHN conductor that runs out the bottom of the coax demark, runs 2 feet down, and then connects to a clamp on the outside of my panel box.

The phone is bonded to the metal pipe approximately 25 feet from the service panel. The metal pipe and gas main are both bonded to the gound bar in the main panel.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
I think you've gotten a bit mixed up over the course of the thread.

The cable TV has a single 12 awg THHN conductor that runs out the bottom of the coax demark, runs 2 feet down, and then connects to a clamp on the outside of my panel box.

The phone is bonded to the metal pipe approximately 25 feet from the service panel. The metal pipe and gas main are both bonded to the gound bar in the main panel.
It is easy to get mixed up because the details of what you have are slowly emerging.

I think it is likely the service panel "bond" to the water pipe was originally the connection to the water pipe as an earthing electrode before the water service became plastic. Otherwise the phone connection to the water pipe was not code compliant when installed. The phone company would not connect to the water pipe now because it is not an earthing electrode.

Phone entrance connector connected 25 feet away is too far. See the example in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30 where the ground wire from a cable entrance protector to the earthing system is 30 feet.

Not stated, but my guess is the phone enters the building far from the electrical service. As I quoted earlier, in that case the IEEE surge guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector." I suggested another approach, and an additional option is the "device" in the NIST surge guide fig 3
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:40 AM   #28
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That's correct. 25 feet.

It looks to be an old drop. Ugly cabling. Caked in paint. And the drop runs right down the middle of my back yard.

Certainly getting it moved is a top priority for me.
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:38 PM   #29
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Certainly getting it moved is a top priority for me.
Or expand the single point ground. Many foolishly assume the longer pipe is a better ground. Better grounding is defined by two concepts: conductivity and equipotential. Expanding the single point ground increases equipotential beneath the house resulting in some increased protection. The example was:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp


Does the old telco installation have an NID? An example of one ison the bottom right of:
http://www.basshome.com/product_3676_detailed.htm
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:13 PM   #30
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It has a... sort of like that.

It's rather older looking. I'll try to remember to take a picture tonight.

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