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Old 05-15-2010, 01:43 PM   #16
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
ummm, no other outlets? Other than what? I don't see a definition of "outlets" nor how many, nor the difference between "bathroom receptacle outlet(s) and "other" receptacles. Is not a receptacle a receptacle?
And frankly, I may have opened a hornets nest.(If you saw the panel interior this would be a gross understatement)This is a very old house, with a very old Panel, and don't have a clue who installed the wiring...perhaps even one of the previous owners. But since the MAIN panel is recessed into an exterior wall, it's very difficult to trace the wiring, if INDEED, the bathroom is on its own 20 amp circuit. However, today I will do some tests to determine this for a fact. Which if common sense serves, a simple lamp plugged into the various recepticals one at a time while throwing various breakers should tell me, no? The breaker LABLES already tell me something as there is NO actual breaker labled "bathroom".
I may be in for a whole "rewire" scenario...but that remains to be seen. One step at a time. This tub is the current "project".

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It is also very much common sense to not have a tub on with the bathroom receptacle considering the typical use these receptacles get.
Maybe in Pro electrical circles. However, I tend to believe one mans "common sense" is entirely ambiguous in relationship to public understanding of a specialized field of knowlege. I could probably illustrate this perfectly, but I don't need to. Its common sense.

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I will not regress and comment further on prior discussion other than to say I hardly put my foot in my mouth sir.
I will sir. To each his own view. Mine was in regards to your assessment that my implied lack of financial resources to purchase a $150 GFCI breaker would undermine my "safety" ethics, and I shouldn't have undertaken this project prior to understanding the Code requirement in the first place, in which case I would become "enlightened" somehow to the fact I cannot "afford" said safety. Which is entirely bull, as posting my thread HAS enlightened me to the fact...by virtue of the CODE, I do NOT need said GFSI "breaker"...which renders your assessment worthless.

I CAN "afford" said "safety", by virtue of the ACTUAL code. No thanks to you. Thats not to say I don't appreciate your more serious contributions.

However, since you DO possess professional knowlege in this field, perhaps
you would share it in this regard.

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680.71 does NOT say you need a particular size circuit, so that just means you have to size the circuit based on the labeling of the power requirements on the whirlpool (and its associated electrical components if there are any). It does say the circuit can't be more than 30 amps. [EDIT: Strick that very last statement. I misread the code... it says that receptacles not exceeding 30 amps located within 6ft of the tub must also be protected by a GFCI]
Oh, thanks for the clarification. Yes, I plan replacing all the recepticals in the bathroom with GFCI's as they are all within 6' of the tub.


Hmm, I'm still a little unsure about something. What DOES define the "size" of the circuit? Even though I understand I MUST run a dedicated circuit with a "standard"breaker, I assume it should be 20ampere as this is a small 120v 8.9 amp motor. However, is there a difinitive code that specifys what "load" should require a given breaker ampere rating? For instance, would a 15amp breaker suffice for this motor circuit? Or is there another regulation covering this aspect?

Furthermore, it appears I need to clarify one other point. When I said I could NOT afford a $150 GFCI "breaker", this was in regards to the BRAND of breaker the clerks at the store laughed about. In reality, the day I took a breaker to the store to ask about a GFCI that was the same brand, I had actually removed this standard breaker from a SUB PANEL in my garage, which at the time seemed easier to run a circuit from, than from my MAIN panel, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. This Sub Panel is a small 60amp panel that feeds the 120v recepticals and one 240v circuit in my garage. However, there was one breaker that wasn't even connected, which in my laymans mind, suggested I might replace it with a GFCI to feed the tub circuit. So now, I'm wondering if this is actually allowed by code. Afterall, even though this sub panel is 15' closer to the bathroom than the main panel, it IS in the garage, which some relative Code may alter my idea. Is there a Code that defines the use of this Panel relative to the bathroom? I haven't removed a breaker from the Main panel or know the brand name yet to price a GFCI for it.
However, I do know that this Main panel is also very old, as I had to order a replacement breaker a while back, as none of the local suppliers carried breakers of this age period. Typical for this house. I just assumed since the Zinsco sub panel GFCI was expensive, a GFCI for the main panel would too. I haven't actually priced it yet though. Although, I don't have a clue(yet)how I would run a circuit from the main panel.



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Speedy pretty much covered it like it is however you also need to have a piece of #8 solid bare or insulated copper wiring from the pump motor casing (there is a lug on the casing) to a the cold water pipe (put the clamp on a pipe fitting not the pipe) and if you install a GFCI receptacle under the tub it has to be accessible. That means you have to put it near the access panel for the pump and facing in a direction that allows access to remove and replace it!
OPPS! Didn't see this. Ok, thanks a million. One more piece of the puzzle.

Thanks gentleman.

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:29 PM   #17
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


The "no other outlets" means that areas outside the bathroom cannot share the circuit.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #18
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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Originally Posted by 3detailer View Post
What DOES define the "size" of the circuit? Even though I understand I MUST run a dedicated circuit with a "standard"breaker, I assume it should be 20ampere as this is a small 120v 8.9 amp motor. However, is there a difinitive code that specifys what "load" should require a given breaker ampere rating? For instance, would a 15amp breaker suffice for this motor circuit? Or is there another regulation covering this aspect?
A dedicated circuit has to be sized to at least handle the load, plus a little overhead. So in this case, add up all the power requirements for the pump (and any other things being powered within this tub if there is more). I don't recall the exact code and exact number, but I believe your expected load should not exceed 80% of the circuit capability. If you only need a total of 9 amps, then 15 or 20 will do. Where this gets a little more difficult is if you needed more than just a 20 amp circuit. It sounds like, from what you have said, you'll be fine with 15 or 20. The blank face GFCI likely can take either (double check), and 15 amp v 20 amp breakers usually cost the same. So your only decision might be if you want to spend the extra money to make it #12 wire for the 20 rather than the cheaper #14 for the 15 amp.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:06 AM   #19
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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The "no other outlets" means that areas outside the bathroom cannot share the circuit.
Thats what I like. Simple. Precise. No ambiguity. THANK YOU.
And that is exactly what I thought...but I like verification from those who know FOR SURE..especially when it comes to electrical.

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A dedicated circuit has to be sized to at least handle the load, plus a little overhead. So in this case, add up all the power requirements for the pump (and any other things being powered within this tub if there is more). I don't recall the exact code and exact number, but I believe your expected load should not exceed 80% of the circuit capability. If you only need a total of 9 amps, then 15 or 20 will do. Where this gets a little more difficult is if you needed more than just a 20 amp circuit. It sounds like, from what you have said, you'll be fine with 15 or 20. The blank face GFCI likely can take either (double check), and 15 amp v 20 amp breakers usually cost the same. So your only decision might be if you want to spend the extra money to make it #12 wire for the 20 rather than the cheaper #14 for the 15 amp.
Again. And thank you. Well, yesterday, after my last post, I got really frustrated and made a decision. I went out to my main panel, and looked at the breakers, wrote down the Type, and then went to my local supply store and ....LOW AND BEHOLD...they had them in stock! Not only that..but they were cheap too So, I bought a 20amp breaker, 25' of #12/2 wg, and went home. This is where this whole project was being held up.

You see, my old house was previously sheithed in T111 ply. But at some point, a previous owner had the entire exterior sheithed in Celotex insulation over the T-111, and then vinyl siding. In some places, they added studs etc and built out all kinds of wierd little enclosures for things. like the Main Panel. In fact, if you really saw how this house was built, and some of the things they did...all I can say is you would probably
The deal is I live in a little town on the coast of Oregon, where I would guess, CODE used to be an unknown word. I know for a fact that this house couldn't have possibly been built "to code" because of some of the things they did. And some of these "things" is what keeps me from digging in and getting projects going. I have to study the "implication" of actually doing something as simple as running this wire. GAK!

All I can say is THANK GOD my brother in law bought me one of those new "universal" cutting tools. My god are they a life saver. I've already used it at least 10 times on this project alone. Cutting wall plates flush..cutting holes for plumbing..cutting away a patch of drywall ..and now...cutting away a 18" square pc of T111 above the electrical panel to get access to the knockouts and an area to drill through the stud on one side of the panel to run the wire through a metal wire chase on the exterior of the house.
And THEN..the mama of all wierd "buildouts" I've ever seen in my life.
But THANK god...whoever built it this way...made for access to the tub and toilet drains...and now, to feed this wire up through the floor/wall. All I had to do was remove some vinyl siding on the underside, and then use my new tool to cut away another 18" square of 1/4" ply behind it. VOILA! There it was...easy access to the tub drain...which I have to replace the actuall section at the tub, as since this was new, the fittings were brass, and have corroded and discolored. Easy fix now. All plastic fittings. AND easy to run this wire.

Which brings up the final question to bring this thread to a close. And that is the question of ...Is there a code, that REQUIRES my GFCI blankface, to be UNDER the tub. And if so...can someone explain the rational why. I explained earlier my idea was to put it in the endwall for easy access should it trip for some reason. In fact, MY rational is, since I read the reasoning for using a GFCI BREAKER, was if a GFCI receptical is used under a tub, should it trip for some reason, the wiring that feeds the GFCI would still be LIVE...at least till the standard breaker trips. This is why I figured if I ran the feed wire up into the endwall, this wire will NOT be exposed to any plumbing leaks should they ever occur. Then I will run the Airswitch feed wire under the tub to the switch, which will all be protected by the GFCI in the end wall. And btw, while were at it, yea, I priced a GFCI breaker for the main panel. It was only $42. But no, I didn't even have that much yesterday. And yea, I WILL replace the new standard breaker with a GFCI breaker next month. And that brings up the FINAL question.

Is there any reason why I can't have BOTH a GFCI breaker AND receptical. The reason I'm trying to get this done now is simple. MY WIFE IS SCREAMING AT ME TO FINISH THIS DAMN THING so she can use this hottub. She's waited 7 stinking years ...so........gotta keep her happy.

Well guys, thanks so much. I feel a lot SAFER now.
fitZ


Oh, btw, heres a couple of Sketchups kinda showing what I'm dealing with. I started drawing my home to scale a year ago in Sketchup, just to help plan my remodel projects. Its by no means finished. Its a work in progress. But you get the idea. The final Sketchup is my studio, which is next to the bathroom, and is the most finished Sketchup. Afterall, THAT is MY project. In reality, the REAL studio is almost finished as well. Thats why my wife is screaming at me to finish HER project.


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Old 05-16-2010, 09:00 AM   #20
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


You can NOT install two GFCI's to protect the same line so if you eventually install a GFCI breaker you will need to remove the blank face GFCI and splice the wiring at that location through and install a blank plate to cover the box.

If you intend to buy the GFCI breaker later I would forgo installing the blank faced GFCI in the end wall and instead just install the GFCI receptacle under the tub. That way when you install the GFCI breaker later and change the under tub GFCI to a standard receptacle you wont have a blank plate to look at on your end wall!

If you are not sure you are going to buy and install a GFCI breaker and you are going to install the GFCI in the end wall as you show in one of the pictures you posted it needs to be a blank face GFCI at that location feeding a standard outlet under the tub.

I see no problem with you setting it up this way! If the GFCI trips there is no power in the outlet box under the tub and the reset is close by! However this is not a requirement, the NEC allows the GFCI to be under the tub enclosure so you are just adding more work and cost by doing it this way.

Just in case you didn't understand the reason for using a blank face GFCI on the end wall: Blank face GFCI's are used for protecting a remote outlet or equipment on a dedicated circuit where you don't want to have the capability of plugging something else into the receptacle.

If you used a regular GFCI receptacle (non blank faced) on the end wall to protect a standard outlet for the tub you would have the capability of using something other than the tub and it would no longer be considered a dedicated circuit!
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:35 AM   #21
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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The "no other outlets" means that areas outside the bathroom cannot share the circuit.
It does also go a bit deeper than this. You can share lighting and vent fans with the bath receptacle only if the circuit is confined to that one bath. Larger heaters or motors, etc CANNOT be on this circuit.

There are many other codes that come into play as well. Such as anything fixed on place sharing a receptacle circuit cannot be more than 50% of the circuit.
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:36 AM   #22
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You can NOT install two GFCI's to protect the same line so if you eventually install a GFCI breaker you will need to remove the blank face GFCI and splice the wiring at that location through and install a blank plate to cover the box.
Actually this is not true at all. You CAN have two GFI's protecting a circuit.
It is not good circuit design, but it is perfectly legal, safe and will work fine.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:21 AM   #23
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If you intend to buy the GFCI breaker later I would forgo installing the blank faced GFCI in the end wall and instead just install the GFCI receptacle under the tub. That way when you install the GFCI breaker later and change the under tub GFCI to a standard receptacle you wont have a blank plate to look at on your end wall!
I did consider that. I was "intimidated" by some of of the previous posts regarding "ultimate safety" though. It was an afterthought. However, considering the next statements...I may reconsider adding a GFCI breaker. Afterall, I've already purchased BLANKFACE GFCI, and if I install it in the endwall, the outlet circuit under the tub that I plug the Airswitch into will be totally protected, and the dedicated wire that feeds the GFCI will be INSIDE a wall, seperated from any plumbing...which means it too will be protected. Maybe more work...but as long as my plan is to CODE, safe, legal and the GFCI blankface is easier to reset than removing an access panel...and it was cheaper....COOL!! I'm a happy camper!!

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You can NOT install two GFCI's to protect the same line so if you eventually install a GFCI breaker you will need to remove the blank face GFCI and splice the wiring at that location through and install a blank plate to cover the box.
ummmmmmm..
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Actually this is not true at all.


Thats what I like about forums..

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You CAN have two GFI's protecting a circuit.
It is not good circuit design, but it is perfectly legal, safe and will work fine.
Well, that about sums it up that issue.

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If you used a regular GFCI receptacle (non blank faced) on the end wall to protect a standard outlet for the tub you would have the capability of using something other than the tub and it would no longer be considered a dedicated circuit!
That was exactly why I bought a blankface. Hmmmm, I guess I'm not a total dunce. Thanks for verifying my thought though.

Quote:
It does also go a bit deeper than this. You can share lighting and vent fans with the bath receptacle only if the circuit is confined to that one bath. Larger heaters or motors, etc CANNOT be on this circuit.

There are many other codes that come into play as well. Such as anything fixed on place sharing a receptacle circuit cannot be more than 50% of the circuit.

And that about sums up the rest. Thank you SIR!! And my apology for appearing uncivil earlier. Your contributions are deeply appreciated.

And THANK YOU EVERYONE ELSE too

Well, I guess that about does it. Again, the DIY community came to the rescue. Ok, I'm ready to button this up...and get my wife off my back. YAHOOOOOOOEEEEEE!!

fitZ


oh, one other thing. Are you sure no one wants to get into NEUTRAL CURRENT??

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Old 05-16-2010, 12:40 PM   #24
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oh, one other thing. Are you sure no one wants to get into NEUTRAL CURRENT??
I believe I will remain neutral on that issue!
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:06 PM   #25
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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I believe I will remain neutral on that issue!


I believe thats called "being wise"

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Going through life like an unbalanced load on a floating neutral!
I REALLY like that one...mind if I use it on other bbs's?

btw, feel like elaborating on this " unbalanced load on a floating neutral!" thing? Or is that the same thing
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:49 PM   #26
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


In energized water you really are defenseless.
You are safer in salt water because the bulk resistivity of salt water is less than the bulk resistivity of the human body so more of the current goes around you rather than through you. With fresh water this isn't so.

That's why I'd prefer to have more than one path to ground for the metal parts of this tub and ultra reliable GFCIs as a backup.
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:09 PM   #27
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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In energized water you really are defenseless.
You are safer in salt water because the bulk resistivity of salt water is less than the bulk resistivity of the human body so more of the current goes around you rather than through you. With fresh water this isn't so.

That's why I'd prefer to have more than one path to ground for the metal parts of this tub and ultra reliable GFCIs as a backup.
Distilled pure water has no conductivity.

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Old 05-16-2010, 07:49 PM   #28
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Whirlpool GFCI circuit info conflict.


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Distilled pure water has no conductivity.
Measuring the conductivity of distilled water is how they check the purity.
http://www.mbhes.com/conductivity_measurement.htm
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:04 AM   #29
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Where does it say upsizing an equipment ground requires upsizing the other conductors?
You def can, I don't know why I wrote that part. I was thinking upsizing the ungrounded conductors when I saw it and responded to that part for some reason. (Ie: a long run where the hot(s)/neutral are upsized for voltage drop) The other stuff has already been verified and references given.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sparky8370 View Post
You def can, I don't know why I wrote that part. I was thinking upsizing the ungrounded conductors when I saw it and responded to that part for some reason. (Ie: a long run where the hot(s)/neutral are upsized for voltage drop) The other stuff has already been verified and references given.
Cool, I thought you had confused the two.

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