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Old 09-27-2007, 09:24 PM   #1
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Hello all, could someone look at the picture below and tell me whats the proper way to run these wires from the main panel.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2...2707014wh0.jpg

The white wire that just hangs off to the right is not yet put in place, its still attached to the roll of romex. nothing is connected in the main breaker - A certified electrician will undertake that task.

The main box is mounted outside, i don't have any option to move it. The back knockouts was used but I used conduit so i can start running cable. I need to know if the conduit needs to be remove and a romex clamp be installed to hold the wires as if it was run in singles out of the box?

I know the romex comes in the box through a clamp that holds it in place but in this case do i still need a clap for this setup?

I have to run 4 240v lines but those will be through separate conduits comming in from knockouts on the bottom and sides.

Also, whats a good size switchbox and receptacle size to have one 14/2 romex in and 2 out.

Any help and or suggestion will be appreciated.

Thanks


Last edited by matrix733; 09-27-2007 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 10:28 PM   #2
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Quote:
I need to know if the conduit needs to be remove and a romex clamp be installed to hold the wires as if it was run in singles out of the box?
No longer than the conduit is, I don't see anything wrong with leaving it. With the panel right against the house, you wouldn't have room for the clamp even if you turned it backwards, which you shouldn't. You also wouldn't be able to attach it to the box even if you wanted to.

Quote:
I know the romex comes in the box through a clamp that holds it in place but in this case do i still need a clap for this setup?
I've never seen a clamp for the end of conduit to hold multiple romex cables, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Inside a wall, I think what you have is OK...with the staples you already have...even better.
Quote:
Also, whats a good size switchbox and receptacle size to have one 14/2 romex in and 2 out.
14/2 in and 2 out?....what's that mean?

As far as size, do you mean amp rating? If so, any rating you choose would be fine. You'll most likely only see switches and rec's rated for 15A or 20A, either would be fine.


Last edited by jproffer; 09-27-2007 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:10 PM   #3
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


one 14/2 in and 2 out?....what's that mean?


Thanks very much for your reply. It was very helpful.

For the quote above, I meant if i have one 14/2 romex entering a switchbox, then another going to a ceiling light (from the same switchbox) and then another from that same switchbox to a receptacle to continue feeding power to more outlets, what size switchbox would be the recommended size to prevent having too many wires in that box since i would pretty much have three 14/2 romex in that one switchbox? I know it varies depending on wire size so thats why i stated the size wire.

Thanks again

Last edited by matrix733; 09-27-2007 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:28 PM   #4
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Unless the outlets are switched, there's no reason to run the rec. cable through the box. But either way, if it's just those 3 cables total...use whatever size box will accomodate the number of devices you have. If I understand correctly, you have one switch for the overhead light. If so, you can use a standard single gang box.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:10 AM   #5
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


You are not allowed to enter the rear of a overcurrent device cabinet in the manner you are doing. Plus you are doing a few other things incorrectly if it was code compliant , which it is not.

Cables...ie...romex non-metallic (nm-b) and others.

Please read....

NEC 312.5(C) Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.

This means the cables must be fastened with clamps period. There is this one exception as follows....

Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than (18 in.) or more than (10 ft) in length, provided all the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within (12 in.), measured along the sheath, at the outer end of the raceway.

(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.

(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.

(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (1/4 in.).

(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(g) Where installed in conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

It may be possible to get exception from an inspector but I wouldn't
count on it.

It will take a 1" sch. 80 or 40 pvc conduit to accomodate (4) 14/2 G cables as per Exp (g). Using modern cable dimensions.

You will need a minumum 18 cu. in box for 3 14/2 G cables with no internal clamps. Generally get one bigger to make connections easier and if installing gfci's. Just any single gang will not cut it. It needs to be the right cubic inch.

BTW...If your wiring design is to land in that switch box first before going to the receptacle you pretty much have to..... how else you going to power your lights? the lights and receptacle are on the same power feed. I believe J Proffer is not considering this.

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Last edited by Stubbie; 09-28-2007 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:58 AM   #6
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Stubbie bear with me for a min but here is the link go to second page and click on few links it will show the outdoor panel box with the rear side punched out

here it is http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=346


this answer should help a bit

Merci , Marc
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:53 AM   #7
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Hmmm....well the first picture is a meter and main disconnect on page 1. I am assuming that LB is protecting service entrance individual conductors to feed the inside panel. Which they say is right on the other side. If it's SE type cable then some kind of strain relief has to be at the knockout location IMO.

The other panel farther on in the thread where all the sheathed cables are coming in on the lower right backside knockout is a code violation IMO. A plastic "snap in" is not rated for that many cables as a clamping means it is strictly abrasion protection. The only way they can have nm-b cable branch circuits coming into that box as shown is to have a tray or chase at the bottom of the cabinet or inside the building that will allow them to splice the nm-b to individual conductors then go into the cabinet without clamps. May need conduit nipples or you may not depends on the location of the splicing enclosure.
So it boils down to an inspectors call as to whether to except the installation as it was shown.

Imo as shown it doesn't fly in terms of code compliance.

Speaking off the record (code wise).. you and I both know that we are faced with this type install all the time and as the thread mentioned it is "almost" accepted....... its up to the inspector to decide.

The top feed exception for cables coming to a surface mounted cabinet when they can't be clamped is pretty controversial from my experience. I'm not real clear on the why of it. If you ask me the PITA of trying to comply with 312.5 is not reasonable nor does it pose any more of an issue than bringing an NM-b cable to an outside weather proof box and gfci from the rear using a protective pvc sleeve threaded into the back of the box.

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Old 09-28-2007, 10:06 PM   #8
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


ok, apart from the way it enters the house, what else is wrong?

thanks
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:25 PM   #9
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


You don't have any anti-abrasion bushings threaded on the end of your conduit nipples. Can you take a picture of the outside for us and inside the panel?
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:55 AM   #10
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
You don't have any anti-abrasion bushings threaded on the end of your conduit nipples.
Here is a close up and a full view of the outside. This house had a old main panel plus a little sub panel on the right (fuse type main and sub). The sub panel will be removed and a 240v line will run through conduit in that same spot. The meter is removed and the top (above meter) is hot of course.

http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?i...2707009hg2.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?i...2707012mo0.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?i...2707013gb6.jpg

Putting Anti-Abrasion bushing is not a problem because as you can see, I ran extra long cables incase I needed to move anything so its a matter of pulling those out of the main panel and putting the bushing in on both sides.

Thanks
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Old 09-29-2007, 01:13 PM   #11
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


Ok I believe if you do those things an inspector would give you exception for that installation.Try to make your work a bit neater going into those nipples. On the inside strip the sheath back to about 1 inch after coming inside the cabinet.. make nice neat "L" entries to your neutral bars and breakers. You don't need 10 inches of extra wire.... that is too freakin long. Here is an example.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../Tallpanel.jpg

I wish you would have replaced the meter pan....

Please replace the neutral wire from the meter to the cabinet that butt splice isn't necessary your only talking a few bucks.

Make sure your bonding means is in place for neutral and equipmenrt ground...green screw most likely.

Seal the inside entry of those nipples with some of that duct seal to keep the bees out of your panel.


Good Luck
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Last edited by Stubbie; 09-29-2007 at 01:25 PM. Reason: fixin my spellin
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Old 09-29-2007, 01:42 PM   #12
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


thanks for all the advice. I really wanted to replace that meter pan as well, its ughly, i think I will have it replaced now, lol. The two hot wires was not long enough so those are new wires, I still have more but the neutral came all the way from the entrance of the service head, it did not separate in the meter pan like the hot wires did.


I have a ground rod already in place and a ground bus for this panel, just did not put it in yet.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-29-2007, 04:08 PM   #13
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Whats the proper way hold these wires.


For what it is worth had you done this again I would have put a panel inside and then also replaced the meter pan. The meter pan would have a lug to terminate the neutral in. You would have simply come out the back of the meter pan then down into the top of your new panel. A couple of ways to do it. Anyway just to let you know as an fyi.

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