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Old 09-18-2007, 12:53 PM   #31
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


I wish I had a three phase problem. Heck, I can't get get POCO to bring three phase into my detached work shop.
I really enjoyed this thread. And yes, it is 3 phase!!!!!!

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:29 PM   #32
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Well said Stubbie- There is a syndicated talk show host based out of ATL named Neil Boortz who is famous for saying don't necessarily believe a word he says-verify it. I reply on this site for fun and check the pro sites for education. No matter how long you are in any field there is always room for learning. I to would pay big money to have three phase at my house. Some people have all the luck....
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:44 PM   #33
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


3 phase delta was a popular connection in SE TX in the 50's and early 60's and is still seen on some older houses. I have been told but can't verify that the reason for it was that many of the early central ac's were 3 phase when it first got popular.

It is still popular for commercial and some say you can still get it ( home machine shops etc.) but you have to write a letter to Poco stating the kw load to make it worth their while for the extra pole gear. If you don't have the load after a period of time you $$$$$.
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Old 09-19-2007, 03:01 AM   #34
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Without intending to be rude, I must say that I'm not very impressed with the US 'colour coding' system for wiring.

Australian regs require that each & every phase be clearly identified. Eg. 'A' phase is red, 'B' phase is white & 'C' phase is blue. For single phase, the 'active' is red & neutral is black.

For flexible cords/extension leads, the active, neutral & earth conductor colours are as per IEEE (IEC). Plug polarity is observed by the style of plug used.

Will the NEC, at some stage in the future, adopt a similar approach (if they haven't already done so)?
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Old 09-19-2007, 04:12 AM   #35
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


The panel in this thread was a real mess actually. Those white wires going to and leaving the meter were not supposed to be white. White insulation is a neutral wire in the usa. On 277 volt lighting systems you sometimes see gray neutrals and some service entrance neutrals have 3 continuous white stripes on black insulation over their entire length. Those three color schemes are our neutrals. Green, green and yellow striped, and bare are our grounds. Anything else is a hot wire.

We have color conventions for our other systems such a 480 and 120/208 3 phase and 3 wire 120/240 single phase. Problem is not everybody follows those conventions.

Here is a brief summary from the nec.....

Quote:
The question often comes up about using black/red/white for 120/240 V single phase and brown/orange/yellow/gray (BOY) for 277/480V three phase and similar. There used to be a color code requirement in the NEC, but it was removed in the mid-70’s. Many proposals have been made to require a color code requirement, and the code making panels response is “We don’t want you to look at wire color and assume because its red it is 120 to ground. We want you to test it and be sure”. There is nothing stopping an agency from adopting a color code standard if it can be enforced. Often what gets installed is what is on the truck. If a color code standard is used for multiwire branch circuits, then the ungrounded conductor identification must be posted at each branch circuit panel board, see Section 210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits, (D) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Using gray for a 277 V grounded conductor is acceptable only if it is not present with another system grounded conductor.
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:28 AM   #36
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


Quote:
"The question often comes up about using black/red/white for 120/240 V single phase and brown/orange/yellow/gray (BOY) for 277/480V three phase and similar. There used to be a color code requirement in the NEC, but it was removed in the mid-70’s. Many proposals have been made to require a color code requirement, and the code making panels response is “We don’t want you to look at wire color and assume because its red it is 120 to ground. We want you to test it and be sure”. There is nothing stopping an agency from adopting a color code standard if it can be enforced. Often what gets installed is what is on the truck. If a color code standard is used for multiwire branch circuits, then the ungrounded conductor identification must be posted at each branch circuit panel board, see Section 210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits, (D) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Using gray for a 277 V grounded conductor is acceptable only if it is not present with another system grounded conductor. "


That is not from the NECŪ ,it looks to be from the NECŪ handbook which is not enforcable BTW.

A 240/120 volt Delta system should not be a DIY project.

Last edited by Norcal; 09-19-2007 at 08:30 AM. Reason: Adding qoute marks & spacing
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:53 AM   #37
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Wrong on both counts, this thread has gone on long enough without such important observations.

For the record the paragaraph contains a qoute from a cmp member during an ROP meeting attended by an author/member from the IMSA.

I find it to be accurate in what it says about the color conventions and the quote is easily verifiable.

The nec handbook is one of the most respected publications out there and is carried by many, many electricians from several levels of skill. I tried not to laugh when you trivialized it. BTW----- Mike Holt Publications aren't enforceable either , nor is Soares, nor is......

Why do you want to make such an issue out of this?

Oh boy.... and I wanted this thread to finally come to an end.

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Old 09-19-2007, 01:42 PM   #38
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


kangaroo:

I was looking over the new color standard for european countries and BS7671 is this what you guys use?

http://www.cse-distributors.co.uk/cable/WiringSupp.pdf


I apologize for the distractions from people who just can't let two people discuss without policing everything that is said.

In general all of our larger wires above 4 awg are black and we identify them with color tape or permanent marker. For instance if I have some copper 2/0 200 amp individual wires coming into a dwellings service panel disconnect they will come in as three wires (a ground wire is not supplied from the utility transformer) . They will be black.... I am allowed to leave the two ungrounded hot conductors as black and identify the neutral wire with white tape or permanent marker. The grounding wires (safety and electrode earthing) for the premises wiring are bonded with the service neutral (grounded conductor) at this neutral bar location. I believe you called it the earth link in your wiring diagram earlier. In some cases our neutrals are bare as some of our service entrance cable use bare neutrals. Like this.....
http://appprod.southwire.com/Product...rodcatsheet274
the center cable is a SEU service cable the bare wires you see are all twisted together and terminated in the neutral lug at the service panel. The picture shows copper but we use aluminum much more often. In this case of course there is no need to identify it.

Tell you what let me open a new thread on this subject and maybe some of the others have some links that will make it easier to compare our systems.



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Old 09-20-2007, 10:56 PM   #39
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


When quoting something its good form to provide credit/source of quote, still glad you posted it. I still stand by the fact that the NECŪ handbook is not inforceable in anyway shape or form, if the NECŪ is adopted by a juristiction it is law, but comments made by panel members is just opinion, do not take those comments as demeaning to the handbook, it is not my intent to do that as it is a good resource , I also stand by my statement that a 240/120V 3 phase delta system is NOT a DIY project, someone who is ignorant of the high leg being 208V is going to cause some problems.



I would hope the NECŪ does not ever adopt Europeon color codes, what Einstein came up w/ a blue for a neutral? A neutral should be a neutral color.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:19 PM   #40
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Actually it wasn't an opinion made by a panel member it was the reasoning behind the refusal of a proposal submitted to the nec for color code standards. It wasn't a verbal qoute made to the author as an opinion from a cmp member but a partial qoute of the "ruling for refusal" as it appeared in the cmp's report at the "report on proposals" regional meeting.

Anyway I think that is dirt under the rug. And yes I agree credit should be given to any quoted sources. I've just never had anyone be that selective...

I think it was rather apparent that the op in this thread was told it wasn't something for DIY and even said himself that he wasn't going to fool with it. So I think you are in agreement with the majority on that issue. That is of course if you believe that panel is really a delta high leg.....

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Old 09-21-2007, 01:28 PM   #41
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The NEC's previous Color Code had absolutely nothing at all to do with the voltage of the conductors, rather it was concerned with the colors of a circuit. A 2 wire 120 Volt or 277 Volt circuit would be black and white, regardless of the phase it was connected to. It became a "recommendation" (predecessor to the "Fine Print Note", and not enforceable) in '71, and was removed in '75.

We have an "unwritten standard", the trade practice of our colors, as does Australia, doesn't it? Certain wires are excluded from being hot conductors in the Australian system, but it's just trade practice that the Red-White-Blue is used. (and this even recently changed from Red-Yellow-Blue.)

When will we change over to the European System? Not soon.
Remember that the USA was first to have electricity distributed to consumers. We had Ben Franklin and the kite, Thomas Edison, Westinghouse etc.
Come on over to our side. You've already chosen Red, White, and Blue.

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Old 09-21-2007, 02:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanB View Post
........
We have an "unwritten standard", the trade practice of our colors, as does Australia, doesn't it? Certain wires are excluded from being hot conductors in the Australian system, but it's just trade practice that the Red-White-Blue is used. (and this even recently changed from Red-Yellow-Blue.)

Come on over to our side. You've already chosen Red, White, and Blue.
Hi Duncan.

Fortunately, there are no "unwritten standards" in Australia about wiring colour coding. Trade Practice in Australia is according to (or should be) the associated standards. If an electrician comes across an installation with the old wiring colours, he is not required to change the old wiring but any new wiring he installs must be according to the latest standards. Where the act of doing this may cause conflict, clear & indelible labelling must be installed to identify the change.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:09 PM   #43
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What type of electric do I have in mu house?


I liked the gray neutrals...When I got in a conduit condelet and saw that gray neutral I was pretty darn sure I had a 277 volt lighting circuit.

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Old 09-21-2007, 03:21 PM   #44
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Pretty darn sure but never positive! I've been fooled before. That guy had 2 phase 540Volt, didn't he?
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Old 09-23-2007, 08:46 AM   #45
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Some jurisdictions do adopt color codes.

http://resources.co.ba.md.us/Documen...color_code.pdf

Batimore co. MD

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