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Old 10-05-2011, 09:45 PM   #16
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


hayewe farm, a UPS does not provide continuous power, nor does it do any better in cleaning the power, no matter what you believe. When power switches over, there is going to be an interruption when the relay switches from the AC source, to the inverted DC source. I have dealt with large UPS banks, and I can tell you that no matter what you have read, you are incorrect in what a UPS is to be used for, vs. a system to clean dirty power.

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Old 10-05-2011, 10:12 PM   #17
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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Electronic equipment can be damaged by factors other than spikes or surges filtered by MOV’s. A MOV surge protector actually provides very little protection and can degrade over time and end up providing no protection at all. An induced spike created by lightening is about 10 nano seconds in duration, an MOV’s switch time is about ten milliseconds much to slow to trap that fast a spike.


So many numbers are completely wrong. No MOV filters anything. No MOV stops a surge. How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not?

Only protectors that are intentionally undersized (to increase profits and to fail faster) will degrade. If it fails faster, then those who use 'observation as knowledge' will recommend that grossly undersized protector. Effective protectors means nobody even knows a surge existed. A properly sized MOV protector is not damaged even after a direct lightning strike.

Surges are not nanosecond events. Destructive surges are microsecond events that cannot and are not stopped by any UPS.

MOVs respond in nanoseconds - not milliseconds. Milliseconds is time a UPS takes to respond to high voltages.

If induced spikes cause damage, then every car radio, wrist watch, mobile phone, and television is damaged by that induced surge. Surges that do damage are direct strikes. A direct lightning strike to wires down the street are a direct strike to all household appliances. Induces surges are a strawman invented to promote sales.

Voltage sags can be harmful to motorized appliances. If one is suffering voltage sags, then that UPS must be on the refrigerator, dishwasher, air conditioner, and washing machine. Meanwhile, all electronics are perfectly happy - have ideal voltage - even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often does your voltage drop so low as to dim bulbs that much? Destructive low voltage is another strawman invented by marketeers and salesmen. An invented fear that sells things nobody needs.

A surge that is incoming to a UPS is also outgoing from that UPS - simultaneously. That is the definition of electricity as taught in elementary school science. Why did that current through a UPS also not damage attached electronics? Same current was going through both simultaneously.

A UPS may have some of the most inferior protection. Read its spec numbers. Near zero protection. Protection inside electronics is often superior to that inside a UPS. Power conditioning inside electronics is also superior. To have equal power conditioning, a UPS must cost something exceeding $1000.

A surge is an electric current that is everywhere, simultaneously, in a path from cloud to earth. Long after that current is flowing through UPS and electronics, then maybe one item in that path is destroyed. In that example, the UPS. If a UPS stopped a surge, then no surge electricity would exist - as was taught even in elementary school science. If a UPS could stop a surge, then the manufacturer spec numbers that say so are posted here.

Everything else in a path through that UPS was more robust.

Informed consumers earth a surge before it even enters the building. Then superior protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance. A superior solution (well proven by over 100 years of science and experience) costs a least amount of money.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:09 AM   #18
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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hayewe farm, a UPS does not provide continuous power, nor does it do any better in cleaning the power, no matter what you believe. When power switches over, there is going to be an interruption when the relay switches from the AC source, to the inverted DC source. I have dealt with large UPS banks, and I can tell you that no matter what you have read, you are incorrect in what a UPS is to be used for, vs. a system to clean dirty power.
There is no switch over interuption with an "Online UPS". With an Online UPS the equipment is being supplied by a filtered and regulated power supplied full time by the inverter. The equipment is never connect to the incoming line. With all your vast experiance you should know that. I would suggest you check out the specs on an "Online" UPS.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:21 AM   #19
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


I know what a UPS does, and there is a very minute time frame that when the relay switches, you have a power fluctuation. I dealt with some that put what you think is top of the line to shame. Face it, you do not know about them, so quit trying to push something you know nothing about.

Cut and dry, a UPS is not for power conditioning, and never was intended for that. It is there for mission critical devices, that when you lose one load, you have another load available. A UPS can be a bank of batteries, a genset, or another set of utility lines for redundancy. A UPS is nothing more than redundant power.
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Old 10-06-2011, 03:03 AM   #20
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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I know what a UPS does, and there is a very minute time frame that when the relay switches, you have a power fluctuation. I dealt with some that put what you think is top of the line to shame. Face it, you do not know about them, so quit trying to push something you know nothing about.

Cut and dry, a UPS is not for power conditioning, and never was intended for that. It is there for mission critical devices, that when you lose one load, you have another load available. A UPS can be a bank of batteries, a genset, or another set of utility lines for redundancy. A UPS is nothing more than redundant power.

Obviously you are the one that doesn’t know what you are talking about. Neither a bank of batteries, a genset, nor another set of utility lines for redundancy is an Online UPS.

Here are the specs for 2 Online UPS's
http://falconups.com/ups/SSGRM%201_5-3K%20-1%20&%20-2%20Ultra%20Brochure.pdf
http://www.powersystemsdirect.com/Minuteman/Endeavor-ED1000RM2U-Online-UPS-Rack-Tower-Double-Conversion_2018.php
You will notice in the specs
Transfer time is Zero. (Not a minute amount of time, zero.)
Output is true sine wave.
Output does not vary by more than 2% from nominal voltage, and, no more than 2% from a true sine wave.
Designed for power sensitive equipment and applications, best quality power output.
Extended brownout, plus surge and transient protection.
Power factor correction (PFC) .
The one even offers Protected equipment insurance value: $200,000 USD (US and Canada Only), RoHS compliant
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:42 AM   #21
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


hayewe farm, I have dealt with some ups systems, that would blow your mind. I know how they work, and what purpose they are for.

I personaly am tired of arguing with some snot nosed brat, that only gets their info off of the internet.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #22
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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hayewe farm, I have dealt with some ups systems, that would blow your mind. I know how they work, and what purpose they are for.

I personaly am tired of arguing with some snot nosed brat, that only gets their info off of the internet.
Well actually Mr. Gregzoll, I had over 40 years experience in the field under my belt . I have dealt with may UPS systems, have designed industrial controls, and installed equipment all over the U.S. and in several foreign countries. The fact that you don't even understand the specs I linked you to is an indication that your closest experience with UPS systems, that would blow my mind, is tightening the connections on their batteries.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:14 AM   #23
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


Now that we have that cleared, the whole pushing the UPS is more than what the OP asked about. btw, the use of the broad term UPS in how it is used, is not even close to the true term of what Uninterpretable Power Source is actually.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:34 AM   #24
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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Here are the specs for 2 Online UPS's

gregzoll is correct. You are posting subjective claims from a sales brochure. For example, it claims a true sine wave output.

This 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Using basic concepts taught in high school math, that output is also called a sine wave. Repetitive outputs are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.

If it does not define pure sine wave with a number such as %THD, then it is only a pure sine wave to those manipulated by subjective claims and advertising.

UPS that does real power conditioning costs $thousands. Then the purest output is simply made dirtier. Again, please learn how electronics works rather than just know from subjective sales claims.

A 120 volts input to electronics is converted to a high voltage DC (well above 300 volts). Then converted to high voltage, radio wave spikes. Any 'conditioning' is completely undone inside electronics to create the purest low voltage (3.3, 5) DC. All that conditioning made unnecessary by superior conditioning already done inside electronics.


OP was asking for surge protection. Some of the best protection is already inside those appliances. His concern is a rare transient, maybe once every seven years, that can overwhelm that protection. That is best solved, for so many times less money, by solving it where utility wires enter the building. Transients that can overwhelm electronics protection will also blow through any UPS that tries to stop it.

A UPS has one function. To provide temporary (and 'dirty') power during a blackout.

A typical UPS does not do power conditioning. Does not have to since better conditioning is already inside electronics. A typical UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to be a threat to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But is ideal perfect power for electronics.

All electronics must work for period with no input power. Because a UPS outputs no power during its switchover period. We don't spend $thousands for a 'no switchover' UPS because all electronics make that unnecessary. Your UPS does nothing useful for the OP.

Last edited by westom; 10-06-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:50 AM   #25
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


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Now that we have that cleared, the whole pushing the UPS is more than what the OP asked about. btw, the use of the broad term UPS in how it is used, is not even close to the true term of what Uninterpretable Power Source is actually.
The OP asked "What kind of surge protector to get for these items" and listed the items which included a computer. In my opinion the kind to get is an Online UPS (which is as close to the true term as you can get). Opinions very and I try to leave it up to the OP to decide on how much protection he wants and is willing to spend. When recommendations are made it is proper to point out their limitations, such as price, switching time limitations, what they won't take care of such as EMI, RFI, or harmonic distortions, etc. but we should leave out personal attacks. I apologize for the tit for tat. You never once ask what my experience was but assumed I was a troll and declared my opinion as not valid. I think we were both caught up in the incoherent ramblings of Westom.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:44 PM   #26
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


hayewe farm, a True UPS will use a power conditioner with live monitoring, to make sure the power on both sides is clean. A UPS is not just a bank of batteries, it can be this http://www.hitecups.com/?RubriekID=2802 which is a DRUPS. Of course, if you have been in the business for over 40 years, you would know this. A UPS is not just a box with a set of batteries, it is a source of power for redundancy.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:46 PM   #27
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


A source of power for redundancy, if the supply comes from a battery or from a tank of diesel fuel it is limited to its storage capacity. I know of no homes that have power input in the 380 to 600 volt range nor that have power requirements of 470 to 2,300 kVA.

This is an excerpt from Lab Manager Magazine http://www.labmanager.com/?articles....rticleNo/3377/ which describes the different types of UPS's, not a sales brochure. Note description #3.

"The IEEE defines UPS products in three distinct categories: off-line, line-interactive and online. They provide the following three increasing levels of protection:
  1. The off-line UPS gives users battery backup, basic surge protection and no voltage regulation when operating from utility power. This low-cost solution provides “squarewave” AC output power when operating on battery. This output is compatible only with a computer, since the power supply inside is robust enough to accept this distorted power.
  2. The line-interactive UPS is similar to the off-line design, except it provides grossly regulated AC power. Voltage regulation is accomplished by electronically changing transformer taps whenever the utility power changes drastically. Paradoxically, this UPS can actually make a greater change in output voltage than the power provided by the utility company (Figure 1). In addition, the attempt to regulate the output voltage in this manner takes a toll on the batteries, which are used frequently as part of the boost-buck automatic voltage regulation (AVR) feature. Typically, this AVR feature is used several times a day to mitigate sag and brownout conditions. The line-interactive UPS design usually provides a sine-wave or semi-sine-wave output when operating on battery.
  3. The online UPS maintains a regulated sine-wave AC output voltage (±2%) to the critical equipment 100% of the time, whether being powered by the utility or from internal battery power. First, the incoming AC is passed through the MOV surge-protected rectifier stage, where it is converted to DC, which is heavily filtered by large electrolytic capacitors. This removes line noise, high-voltage transients, harmonic distortion and all frequency-related problems. The input capacitors also act as an energy storage reservoir, giving the online UPS the ability to “ride through” momentary power interruptions without battery drain. As the battery source is also connected to this DC circuitry, it simply takes over as the energy source in the event of a complete utility loss. This makes the transition between utility and battery power seamless, without the 4–25 millisecond interruption in the UPS output associated with the other two UPS designs. The filtered DC is sent to a DC/DC converter or chopper circuit that acts as a DC voltage regulator. The DC voltage is tightly regulated and fed to a second set of filter capacitors. This stage gives the UPS its ability to provide a constant output even during sustained deep brownouts or low line conditions, which require the off-line or line-interactive UPS to go to battery mode. The regulated DC voltage is fed to a 100% continuous duty cycle inverter, where a totally new AC sine-wave output is generated. Some online models on the market will accept a drop-in utility line voltage below 60V, while maintaining a perfect sine-wave output voltage of 120VAC (±2%)."
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Old 10-06-2011, 03:35 PM   #28
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What kind of surge protector to get for these items


hayewe farm, are you hard headed or what. You have pretty much derailed this thread trying to push something that the OP never asked about, and something that you have beaten the dead horse with.

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