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Old 10-28-2008, 12:02 AM   #16
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Well pump control box delema


Yep, after I installed the box I saw where it read that the motor must have a thermal cutoff switch built in. Thinking back 11 years ago, im kinda remembering the guy saying something about being double protected now, while talking about the old box, and said since the old box was working fine, he saw no reason to replace it. I will take the resistance readings, and post the results. The relay and cap are in the cover, and connect thru heavy slide in terminals, so I shouldn't have to remove any wires to take the readings. If what you say is true about 3 wire motors not having thermal cutoff switches, then why would the box have terminals for 3 wire motors and say the TCO must be in the motor ? Hmmmm.....

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Old 10-28-2008, 11:19 AM   #17
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Well pump control box delema


The thermal in your motor works just like the type used in a hair dryer. Overheats, opens the motor winding within the motor. Just connect the motor as described in the control box diagram.

What readings do you plan to take? If you do not have a winding diagram for the motor, you are wasting your time. The breaker in the panel will protect the circuit and the thermal in the motor will protect the motor.
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:45 AM   #18
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Well pump control box delema


I see you didn't read the post before my last one. Our pump and motor were replaced in 1997, 11 years ago, so it may not have a thermal cutoff switch in it.

Micro Mind said"
"To properly size the thermal overloads, we'll need to know the full-load amps of the motor. Of course, we don't have that information, but if we had accurate resistance readings between each of the 3 wire combinations (BLA to RED, BLA to YEL, and RED to YEL), we very likely could determine the HP of the motor, and thus the amps. We'd also need to know the approximate length of the wire (distance from the control box to the well, and depth of the well), and the wire size (gauge). You could also hook it up, turn it on, and measure actual current."

You see, we don't know whats down there. The guy didn't write down any useable info. The part number on the receipt won't come up online, and the dude is retired now. The well is running fine now, but were afraid that we don't have any protection other than the power panel. The old control box was origional from 1957, and had a thermal cutoff switch in it. Thats what was tripping, and shutting the pump down, so I replaced the whole box, then discoved that there was no thermal cutoff switch in it.

The owner of Red Bluff Industrial Electric (not a pump business, but he does alot of electrical and motor work) told me that he thought it was like 7 or 8 years ago when they started putting the TCO switches in the pump motors. If I only had a valid motor number to look up. All I have is a receipt from 1997 that says it is pump number 12 SB 10412 and that it was $484.00 before tax. I hope that clarifies things for you... Dennis
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:22 PM   #19
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Well pump control box delema


Dennis, Sorry I did not look back at your previous post. Bad habit of mine. At least it is running and not an emergency. I would continue to work with Rob (micromind) for peace of mind. No pun intended.

I will add this. If this were my pump system I would leave it alone for now and get another new pump motor and cable. Then replace it at your next convenience. 11 years for a submersible pump is better than would be expected. This statement would be viable to me (IF) it were my only source of water.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #20
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Well pump control box delema


Hmmm... I was told by the guy who installed the pump, that average pump life was about 20 years. Our old pump was from 1957, 40 years old ! The pump guy was shocked and wanted to keep it for his collection, and said it was the oldest set he had ever pulled up. lol
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeonthree View Post
Hmmm... I was told by the guy who installed the pump, that average pump life was about 20 years. Our old pump was from 1957, 40 years old ! The pump guy was shocked and wanted to keep it for his collection, and said it was the oldest set he had ever pulled up. lol
Dennis,
You might get another 39 years out of this one too. My pump is 10 years old and I have had no issues yet. I guess they last longer than I expected. I hope your right. Mine is 350' deep. At least thats what the Realtor told me?
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:31 PM   #22
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Well pump control box delema


I'd like to see 20 years, it's been 11 so far. Our well is 240 feet deep. When the pump was replaced 11 years ago, the bill was like $1600.00. Makes we want to weld up an A frame, add a winch to it, make or buy the pipe securing clamp, buy a couple of hefty pipe wrenches, and handle everything except casing issues myself. If by chance the casing ever needed replacing, it would be cheaper if the pump was already removed also. I watched the guys pull and install the pump, it was not hard work at all with the right setup, just a bit time consuming pulling 12 20 foot sections of pipe. Dennis

Last edited by freeonthree; 10-28-2008 at 02:34 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:32 PM   #23
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Well pump control box delema


My only concern at this point is wether or not this 11 year old pump motor has a thremal cutoff switch in it.
Im gunna take those reading for micro mind here shortly...
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:49 PM   #24
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Well pump control box delema


OK, here are my readings.
red/blk 13.6 ohms
yel/blk 3.1 ohms
red/yel 11.1 ohms
By the way, the cut in is 28 psi, and the cutoff is 46 psi.
I precharged the empty tank to 25 psi.
So far it's working great with the new control box.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:16 PM   #25
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Well pump control box delema


I forgot that Micromind wanted to know the wire size and length, so I opened the box again. The solid copper wire measures .080in and im guessing 40 feet from well to box, tank and pressure switch, so thats 280 feet of wire roughly. While I had the box open, I noticed all the female spade connectors were just crimped on, so I soldered them all. Dennis

Last edited by freeonthree; 10-28-2008 at 04:17 PM. Reason: add word
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:03 PM   #26
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Well pump control box delema


The results of about 20 minutes of research:

1) The diameter of #14 bare wire is 0.064". #12 is 0.081". #10 is 0.102". Your wire is #12. The resistance of #12 is 1.93 ohms per 1000'. Your run is about 560' (280' out, and 280' back.) The resistance at the motor will be 1.08 ohms less than the reading at the control box.

2) The resistance of the main (run) winding is actually about 2.1 ohms. The actual resistance of the start winding is about 10 ohms.

3) The Franklin book shows the resistance of a 3/4HP 3 wire motor to be 3.0-3.6 ohms on the main winding, and 11.0-13.6 on the start. A 1HP model is 2.2-2.7, and 9.9-12.1 A 1-1/2 is 1.7-2.2, and 8.0-9.7 These figures assume a 30C (86F) temperature. Since this motor is in a well, it'll be colder. Resistance decreases with temperature.

4) This is most likely a 1HP motor. The model number is probably 21450889003S. If this is the case, the book lists this motor as having built-in thermal protection. The full-load amps is 8.2 The service factor amps is 9.8 Most submersible pumps load the motors into the service factor, I'd expect the actual current to be about 9 to 9.5 This current will appear on the yellow and black, the red should read pretty close to 0, as it's only in the circuit during starting.

Rob

P.S. This research was fun!!
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:29 AM   #27
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Well pump control box delema


Wow ! Thanks Rob ! That was some fancy calculating. I looked in the manual, at a list of motors, but it didn't get that close. That number must be a complete pump and motor assembly, and the book only shows motors. Closest I got in the book was a 2145081.
I really appreciate your assistsance with this. I need to study that info, and play with the calculator now and try to understand how to do this on my own the next time. I can't thank you enough Rob. I have the harbor freight meter coming, and it will be both fun and educational for me to check the current draw on the yellow and black motor wires. Do I need to check starting current also, or is the run current enough ? Dennis

Last edited by freeonthree; 10-29-2008 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:13 AM   #28
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Well pump control box delema


While we are discussing well pumps I have a question. I have an abandoned good well on my property and was considering using an above ground pump, tank, and pressure switch as that was the setup previously. I have all this equipment stored. What advantages or disadvantages are there to above ground vs submersible. Obviously all the equipment is accessible, and I can build a stand for the equipment.
The well is about 3 feet in diameter at the top. I can open it and see the water from above with a flashlight. Its a concrete pipe type of well.
There is foot valve on two black plastic pipes that have fallen down into the well. I can see them so I am pretty sure I can get them pulled back up. Any opinions appreciated.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:33 PM   #29
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Well pump control box delema


Basically, well pumps come in 4 types:

1) Straight centrifugal. These are the simplest pump there is. They have one suction port, and one discharge port. They're often called Sprinkler Pumps. Also, single pipe systems. The advantages are:
A) The pump and motor are above-ground, and easy to service.
B) They're the least expensive of any well pump.
The disadvantages are:
A) They must be installed no higher than about 20' from the water. Output falls off quickly at about 12'.
B) They must have a provision for priming. This can be a check valve at the bottom of the well, or a hand-operated priming pump.
C) They must be protected from freezing.

2) Jet pump. This is very similar to the straight centrifugal, but it has two suction pipes. Often called two pipe systems. One of these is an actual suction pipe, the other sends pressurized water back down the well to a jet which uses a venturi (sp) to sort of ram water up the suction pipe. The result is suction lift of up to 100' or so. The advantages and disadvantages are the same as the straight centrifugal, except they can be used in deeper wells.

3) Submersible. With these, the pump and motor are located at the bottom of the well. Most of these pumps have more than one impeller, called a stage. For a 60' well, there might be 2 or 3 stages, for a 800' well, there might be 15 stages. They are 1/3HP up to about 60HP, though I've seen larger.
The advantages are:
A) Higher output per HP than above-ground types.
B) No priming, the pump is underwater.
C) If used with a pitless adapter, all piping is underground. No freezing.
The disadvantages are:
A) More expensive than above-ground types.
B) More difficult to service.
C) The motor must have water running past it for cooling. This is not a problem in a well under 12" diameter, but in a pond or cistern it shouldn't run more than 5 minutes at a time.

4) Lineshaft. This type has a vertical shaft motor located above the well, and a casing with a shaft in it going down the well, and the impellers at the bottom of the well. The largest motor I've ever connected (15,000HP) was this type of pump. The smallest one I've ever seen was 10HP.
The advantages are:
A) The motor is above-ground, for easy servicing.
B) Since the motor is above-ground, a big pump can be in a small well.
C) Since the pump is underwater, no priming in needed, sort of. (See disadvantages)
D) Very deep wells are possible. The last geo-thermal power plant I worked on had 4 wells 4,000' deep.
The disadvantages:
A) These are the most expensive of any pump type.
B) While the impellers don't need to be primed, the lineshaft bearings are usually water-lubricated. Water must be poured down the well before the pump is started. If you see one of these pumps standing alone, there's usually a small barrel on a stand nearby. This holds the bearing priming water.
C) If the motor ever turns backward, the impellers (usually called bowls) will be destroyed. A lot of these motors have ratchets on them so they cannot possibly turn backward.
D) The upper bearing of the motor holds the entire weight of the lineshaft, and is oil-immersed. The oil level must be maintained, and in the case of a very deep well, it must be cooled.

There are other types out there, but these are the main ones.

Rob
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:09 AM   #30
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Well pump control box delema


Thats alot of great information. I guess you've seen all the different kinds of pumps out there. You kinda sound like me talking about VW's.
It's amazing how much information we can retain when were interested in something. I have the ability and equipt to manufacture a pump pulling rigging above the well, but it would cost alot for the metal and then a good winch for it. I wonder if a guy can rent a a portable 25 foot tall A Frame setup or something when the time comes. The replacement pump was $450.00, and the bill was like $1600.00, so renting an A frame rig may be WELL (pardon the pun) worth it. I have a 3/4 ton flatbed, now I need a crane for it I guess. Dennis

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