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-   -   Well House 110v outlet needed (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/well-house-110v-outlet-needed-195042/)

GreaseMonkey 01-29-2014 12:01 AM

Well House 110v outlet needed
 
If I could ask of some expert advice on this subject. To begin, I have a well house that has a (1) wire feed going to the 220v well pump. This feed is a (2) wire (10 gauge) with ground. At the meter pole and below the meter I have an(outdoor)main breaker panel (200amp) this panel has (3) wires coming in from the meter and spaces for eight breakers. There is only (1) breaker installed in this box and it is a (20amp)220v breaker that feeds the pump (30feet away), as referenced above. I would like to add a 110v breaker to this panel and run a (2) wire with ground to the well house so that I can install an outlet for a light bulb to use during the coldest of days. I have looked inside the panel and noticed there is no location for a (neutral/ground?) hookup. The 220v breaker (inside the panel) has the black lead and the white lead hooked up and then the ground lead is hooked into a bar off to the left, I am not sure if this would be considered the ground bar or the neutral bar? I would like any advise on making this install. I live in a county with no electric codes and all work was done years ago before I owned the place. I have just rebuilt the rotted well house and would like to make it more weather tolerant other than the insulation and new structure I need to add the outlet. Other information I can provide is the house receives power from this box via (2) lugs on the bottom and the (1) lead from the (ground/neutral?) I really don't want to put a panel inside the well house but would if that is the recommended way.

Stubbie 01-29-2014 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey (Post 1298387)
If I could ask of some expert advice on this subject. To begin, I have a well house that has a (1) wire feed going to the 220v well pump. This feed is a (2) wire (10 gauge) with ground. At the meter pole and below the meter I have an(outdoor)main breaker panel (200amp) this panel has (3) wires coming in from the meter and spaces for eight breakers. There is only (1) breaker installed in this box and it is a (20amp)220v breaker that feeds the pump (30feet away), as referenced above. I would like to add a 110v breaker to this panel and run a (2) wire with ground to the well house so that I can install an outlet for a light bulb to use during the coldest of days. I have looked inside the panel and noticed there is no location for a (neutral/ground?) hookup. The 220v breaker (inside the panel) has the black lead and the white lead hooked up and then the ground lead is hooked into a bar off to the left, I am not sure if this would be considered the ground bar or the neutral bar? I would like any advise on making this install. I live in a county with no electric codes and all work was done years ago before I owned the place. I have just rebuilt the rotted well house and would like to make it more weather tolerant other than the insulation and new structure I need to add the outlet. Other information I can provide is the house receives power from this box via (2) lugs on the bottom and the (1) lead from the (ground/neutral?) I really don't want to put a panel inside the well house but would if that is the recommended way.

In the service equipment panel ground and neutral are bonded. So connect your neutral for your 120 volt circuit to the same bar they connected the ground of the 240 volt breaker. Just don't use the same hole as the ground for the 240 volt circuit. Connect the the ground to same bar.

I should add that there is live electricity in the panel so focus on what your doing. Understand that the buses your installing the breaker will be hot if you do not turn off the main.

Quote:

Other information I can provide is the house receives power from this box via (2) lugs on the bottom and the (1) lead from the (ground/neutral?)
This is called a feed thru lug panel and you should have a panel in the house that is fed from this service equipment with 4 wires ... 2 hots a neutral and ground.

danpik 01-29-2014 06:43 AM

Since the well house is a separate structure, isn't it against code to run more than one circuit to this building?

Kyle_in_rure 01-29-2014 07:15 AM

You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:

Just an idea.....

rjniles 01-29-2014 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle_in_rure (Post 1298426)
You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:

Just an idea.....


Certainly the easiest solution but do not wire it to a receptacle. Wire thru a switch to a lamp holder.

The other compliant method would be to replace the existing 2 wire feed with a 3 wire feed so that you have a neutral.

Stubbie 01-29-2014 11:13 AM

Quote:

I really don't want to put a panel inside the well house but would if that is the recommended way.
I apologize for the oversite in my previous reply.

The NEC would require a panel and earth grounding electrode(s) or bonding to metal well casing would be allowed
if the supply to the house is via pvc water line.. You would replace the branch circuit for the pump with a 4 wire feeder .. 2 hots, one neutral and equipment ground. Neutral and ground would not be bonded at the well house panel. You would then install branch circuits for the well pump and lights and receptacles. This also allows disconnect for the structure and more convenience for maintenance.

On commercial properties you would be allowed in some cases to run more than one branch circuit to a remote structure under certain circumstances for lighting.

A small 4 space 70 amp panel would suffice and the feeder would be sized to the calculated load for servicing the pump house.

It would be the code compliant way to supply equipment and lights at your pump house and since you have to trench to get the lighting circuit out there not a lot of extra work. You will incur some extra cost.... new breaker at the service equipment to protect the feeder, bigger and proper wire for underground feeder, panel, breakers for the branch circuits, interior wire, ground rod(s)if not using well casing, #6 wire for the earth grounding to rod or well casing and proper clamp for connection. Then you need to determine if you want direct bury wire or wire protected by conduit like pvc. You also have burial depth requirements regardless what you do.

rjniles 01-29-2014 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie (Post 1298507)
I apologize for the oversite in my previous reply.

The NEC would require a panel and earth grounding electrode(s) or bonding to metal well casing would be allowedif the supply to the house is via pvc water line.. You would replace the branch circuit for the pump with a 4 wire feeder .. 2 hots, one neutral and equipment ground. Neutral and ground would not be bonded at the well house panel. You would then install branch circuits for the well pump and lights and receptacles. This also allows disconnect for the structure and more convenience for maintenance.

On commercial properties you would be allowed in some cases to run more than one branch circuit to a remote structure under certain circumstances for lighting.

A small 4 space 70 amp panel would suffice and the feeder would be sized to the calculated load for servicing the pump house.

It would be the code compliant way to supply equipment and lights at your pump house and since you have to trench to get the lighting circuit out there not a lot of extra work. You will incur some extra cost.... new breaker at the service equipment to protect the feeder, bigger and proper wire for underground feeder, panel, breakers for the branch circuits, interior wire, ground rod(s)if not using well casing, #6 wire for the earth grounding to rod or well casing and proper clamp for connection. Then you need to determine if you want direct bury wire or wire protected by conduit like pvc. You also have burial depth requirements regardless what you do.

Stubbie (and poster),

Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.

Stubbie 01-29-2014 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjniles (Post 1298521)
Stubbie (and poster),

Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.

That probably would be fine I am just reluctant to advise that design. I much prefer a panel and grounding electrode system for a pump house.

dmxtothemax 01-29-2014 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle_in_rure (Post 1298426)
You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:

Just an idea.....

Perhaps use a different style lamp base !
This would prevent a 120v lamp from being put in ?
But good idea thou !
is it code compliant ?

ionized 01-29-2014 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie (Post 1298507)
On commercial properties you would be allowed in some cases to run more than one branch circuit to a remote structure under certain circumstances for lighting.

A light that can be turned on from the house, or a light switched at both ends should certainly be allowed. It might be more work than the MWBC or a sub panel, but I thought it out to be out there for consideration. You could put a lamp outside the house so you don't trip on the way out :)

Now for a crazier solution. Jut put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb

Probably more reasonable, just get a 277V incandescent lamp. They ought to be pretty common for the time being. Still better, perhaps, get a universal-voltage ballast and put in a fluorescent strip luminaire.

GreaseMonkey 01-29-2014 10:50 PM

Much Thanks
 
Gosh, I am overwhelmed with the possibilities. Everyone's suggestions are much appreciated and I see I have several choices. If I gather this correctly I think since I am going to have to run a new circuit to the pump for the 110v outlet which I will probably run switched so I can put a light inside the pump house and a light outside the pump house. I will be digging a trench and placing a pvc conduit from the main panel to the pump house for this 110v circuit. Now being I will be digging up the trench the 220v feed is in can I run both branches in one run of PVC or do I need to keep them separate if I am not installing a panel inside the pump house? 1. I do know I will be replacing the 2 wire with ground that is there with a 3 wire with ground. 2. I do know that I will be putting in a switched 110v circuit in the pump house for the outlet and an outside light. Looking at these facts for the cheapest and least labor intensive? Would your recommendation be to replace the 2 wire /ground to a 3 wire /ground larger gauge and 30 amp breaker at main panel and put a subpanel in the pump house and branch off of it for all of the needs, the 220v pump the 110v outlet? Or, keep the 220v as is, and run a circuit to the pump in conduit for 110v with 2 wire/ground? Thanks to everyone for all of the advise. It is much appreciated.

GreaseMonkey 01-29-2014 11:06 PM

Can you explain the unfused HVAC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rjniles (Post 1298521)
Stubbie (and poster),

Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.

I like where you are going here, this sounds like the less labor intensive but I can't say I know what an un-fused HVAC is.

dmxtothemax 01-29-2014 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionized (Post 1298725)
Just put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb

A good idea !

One light inside & one light outside ! Easy as !

GreaseMonkey 01-29-2014 11:19 PM

I'm trying to envision.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ionized (Post 1298725)
A light that can be turned on from the house, or a light switched at both ends should certainly be allowed. It might be more work than the MWBC or a sub panel, but I thought it out to be out there for consideration. You could put a lamp outside the house so you don't trip on the way out :)

Now for a crazier solution. Jut put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb

Probably more reasonable, just get a 277V incandescent lamp. They ought to be pretty common for the time being. Still better, perhaps, get a universal-voltage ballast and put in a fluorescent strip luminaire.

So if I ran it in series I could run two 120v lamp sockets by tying into the black wire put the two sockets in series. This would be for the situation as it stands now with the 2 wire/ground.
What would happen if one of the lamps blew, I guess it would just toast the other one? (WRONG)

Kyle_in_rure 01-29-2014 11:23 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey
I like where you are going here, this sounds like the less labor intensive but I can't say I know what an un-fused HVAC is.

It is one of those pullout disconnects usually mounted on the walls next to outside Air conditioning units. They are usually in grey boxes.


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