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Old 12-09-2012, 09:52 AM   #31
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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If youre worried about it being grounded why not install a gfi in an accessable location like under the sink and use an appliance cord on the dishwasher to connect it?
Someone mentioned it's not to code. But the more I think about it, the more that does make sense in principle. It does seem safer.

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Old 12-09-2012, 09:53 AM   #32
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


Honestly, it seems that you have uncovered more electrical issues than just the dishwasher hook up.

If there are pex repairs, then bonding of the water piping has been lost.

The only way to fix this right is to run a new circuit for the dishwasher from the main panel.

Earth grounding is probably the single most important thing in an electrical system. From what you have told us, either there is no earth ground, or at the very least, what does exist is absolutely not up to code at all.

I understand your frustration, but this homeowner needs an electrician to put things right.

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:04 PM   #33
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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Earth grounding is probably the single most important thing in an electrical system.

No, but BONDING is...
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:07 PM   #34
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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Someone mentioned it's not to code. But the more I think about it, the more that does make sense in principle. It does seem safer.
It is safer, but still does not meet code, so scratch that idea. NOTHING trumps an equipment grounding conductor.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #35
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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If youre not opening the walls to replace wiring I think it would be very hard for an inspector to enforce that on an existing appliance.
Most of our inspectors around here anyway are smart enough to draw the line on existing equipment.
And if hes worried about it from just a safety stand point Id say the gfi would make it much safer than it being on a regular ungrounded outlet anyway
As an electrician, I would sell a new circuit to the unit and explain the dangers of the existing situation.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:43 PM   #36
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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No, but BONDING is...
Bonding, grounding, earthing... I'm doing my best here.

He said that there is no connection to the water pipe where it enters the foundation until about 20 feet in.

Oh, and he never said WHAT was connected to it there...
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:34 PM   #37
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
As an electrician, I would sell a new circuit to the unit and explain the dangers of the existing situation.
As a retired electrician I have enough common sense to know the difference between a simple existing condition that can be fixed by installing a gfi outlet under the sink to feed it with.
Of course I could tell them they need to open the kitchen wall and basement ceilings and walls to get me access to the panel.
And while the wall is open I could point out that the plumbing/venting in the wall for the sink was legal but now that the wall has been opened it needs to be brought up whichever current code they fall under.
And since the walls are now opened up theres not enough small appliance circuits in the kitchen so they need to be brought up to current code.
And while I was running wires through the basement wall I opened up to get to the panel I noticed the kitchen sink was dumping into the same line with the washing machine downstairs which was legal when house was built years ago,but now it needs to be brought up to current code.
And while I had the basement wall opened to run the wires to the disposal I noticed the outlets in the now open wall are spread too far apart so I need to rewire the basement plugs to bring them up to current code including tamper resistant plugs.
And once I get to that old junk ge panel that was installed way back when I don't have enough space left in the panel to feed all the extra circuits I just sold them to go with there new $20,000.00 kitchen they just had to do and the remodeleled basement and laundry room they just had to have done to bring things up to current code.
So now I sell them a new 200a service with a sq-d panel and a slug of afci breakers,but when I go to bond the service to the existing water service I notice 1 of the old globe valves on the street side of water meter looks a little crusty so I tell the homeowner we should probably just install a new copper water service from the street to the house because ya just never know!
So I could spend $40,000.00 of somebodys money to open a big can of worms of things that have been working safely for lets say 40 plus years or I could explain to them I can install a $7.00 tp gfi under their sink and accomplish the exact same thing with the kitchen remodel to go with it.
Then maybe they'll take some of that mountain of money they didn't have to spend on updating a bunch of stuff that wasn't causing a problem and spend $50 to have their furnace inspected and maybe find the crack in the heat exchanger that could kill everybody in the house while sleeping,makes more sense to me anyway.
I guess that's why Im retired so I don't have to sell stuff to people,now I can spend my time trying to help people instead.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:36 PM   #38
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


Quote:
Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
As an electrician, I would sell a new circuit to the unit and explain the dangers of the existing situation.
As a retired electrician I have enough common sense to know the difference between a simple existing condition that can be fixed by installing a gfi outlet under the sink to feed it with.
Of course I could tell them they need to open the kitchen wall and basement ceilings and walls to get me access to the panel.
And while the wall is open I could point out that the plumbing/venting in the wall for the sink was legal but now that the wall has been opened it needs to be brought up whichever current code they fall under.
And since the walls are now opened up theres not enough small appliance circuits in the kitchen so they need to be brought up to current code.
And while I was running wires through the basement wall I opened up to get to the panel I noticed the kitchen sink was dumping into the same line with the washing machine downstairs which was legal when house was built years ago,but now it needs to be brought up to current code.
And while I had the basement wall opened to run the wires to the disposal I noticed the outlets in the now open wall are spread too far apart so I need to rewire the basement plugs to bring them up to current code including tamper resistant plugs.
And once I get to that old junk ge panel that was installed way back when I don't have enough space left in the panel to feed all the extra circuits I just sold them to go with there new $20,000.00 kitchen they just had to do and the remodeleled basement and laundry room they just had to have done to bring things up to current code.
So now I sell them a new 200a service with a sq-d panel and a slug of afci breakers,but when I go to bond the service to the existing water service I notice 1 of the old globe valves on the street side of water meter looks a little crusty so I tell the homeowner we should probably just install a new copper water service from the street to the house because ya just never know!
So I could spend $40,000.00 of somebodys money to open a big can of worms of things that have been working safely for lets say 40 plus years or I could explain to them I can install a $7.00 tp gfi under their sink and accomplish the exact same thing without the kitchen remodel to go with it.
Then maybe they'll take some of that mountain of money they didn't have to spend on updating a bunch of stuff that wasn't causing a problem and spend $50 to have their furnace inspected and maybe find the crack in the heat exchanger that could kill everybody in the house while sleeping,makes more sense to me anyway.
I guess that's why Im retired so I don't have to sell stuff to people,now I can spend my time trying to help people instead.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:19 PM   #39
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


Quote:
Originally Posted by plummen View Post
As a retired electrician I have enough common sense to know the difference between a simple existing condition that can be fixed by installing a gfi outlet under the sink to feed it with.
Of course I could tell them they need to open the kitchen wall and basement ceilings and walls to get me access to the panel.
And while the wall is open I could point out that the plumbing/venting in the wall for the sink was legal but now that the wall has been opened it needs to be brought up whichever current code they fall under.
And since the walls are now opened up theres not enough small appliance circuits in the kitchen so they need to be brought up to current code.
And while I was running wires through the basement wall I opened up to get to the panel I noticed the kitchen sink was dumping into the same line with the washing machine downstairs which was legal when house was built years ago,but now it needs to be brought up to current code.
And while I had the basement wall opened to run the wires to the disposal I noticed the outlets in the now open wall are spread too far apart so I need to rewire the basement plugs to bring them up to current code including tamper resistant plugs.
And once I get to that old junk ge panel that was installed way back when I don't have enough space left in the panel to feed all the extra circuits I just sold them to go with there new $20,000.00 kitchen they just had to do and the remodeleled basement and laundry room they just had to have done to bring things up to current code.
So now I sell them a new 200a service with a sq-d panel and a slug of afci breakers,but when I go to bond the service to the existing water service I notice 1 of the old globe valves on the street side of water meter looks a little crusty so I tell the homeowner we should probably just install a new copper water service from the street to the house because ya just never know!
So I could spend $40,000.00 of somebodys money to open a big can of worms of things that have been working safely for lets say 40 plus years or I could explain to them I can install a $7.00 tp gfi under their sink and accomplish the exact same thing without the kitchen remodel to go with it.
Then maybe they'll take some of that mountain of money they didn't have to spend on updating a bunch of stuff that wasn't causing a problem and spend $50 to have their furnace inspected and maybe find the crack in the heat exchanger that could kill everybody in the house while sleeping,makes more sense to me anyway.
I guess that's why Im retired so I don't have to sell stuff to people,now I can spend my time trying to help people instead.

Stay retired my friend.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:49 PM   #40
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


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He said that there is no connection to the water pipe where it enters the foundation until about 20 feet in.

Oh, and he never said WHAT was connected to it there...
No, what I said was there is no connection to the water pipe within the first 20 feet (up until the water shutoff to the house). I didn't bother looking along the water pipe beyond that, because what's the point? At that point, I know it's off.

I looked under the panel, and the only thing I see coming out of it are the source line, and circuit cables. I don't see any grounding anywhere. Either it's done too obscurely for me to identify, or there's no grounding to anything but the neutral bus.

As you guys say, electrician time.....
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:00 PM   #41
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Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher


I still have an active electrical contractors license and master plumbers license.
Ive been doing this work since before many of the guys in the trades were born.
Im just using your logic here,once you expose work that's not up to current code you need to update it to current code right?
If an inspector sees something else inside the wall once its open it has to be updated no matter what the trade once the wall is open right?
Ive got an old duplex that a friend of mine owns that the city was complaining about the windows on.
While he was tearing out the windows and plaster around the inside of the windows he decided to tear out the rest of the plaster and hang new sheetrock and insulate the walls and ceilings .
Well now since the knob and tube wiring is exposed and the plugs are too few and far between guess whos rewiring 1 side of the building?
And since the bathroom is opened up now for new wiring the plumbing fixtures are not up to code so guess whos also replumbing that side of the building from the ground up through the 2nd floor and roof?
And then theres the kitchen plumbing/wiring,living room,dining room,basement..........
And since the new plumbing will be running through where the 1950s ductwork was run in a previous remodel,Ill have to repipe all that also.
Yeah I know just a little about dominoes also my friend ,Ill be sure to post some progress pictures of the wiring this week once the framers get out of my way!

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