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-   -   Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/ungrounded-wiring-need-ground-dishwasher-165821/)

jeffnc 12-07-2012 06:49 AM

Ungrounded wiring, need ground for dishwasher
 
I'm a little confused about the electric code here. Someone removed the dishwasher to do some work. I want to reinstall it but the source wire is ungrounded (whole house uses ungrounded wiring). I'm not sure if the dishwasher was wired ungrounded originally. I saw nearby a wire that was wrapped around a nearby copper pipe, so I don't know if it might have been connected to that.

My thought was to go to where the copper pipe enters the house (crawlspace) through the dirt and bond a ground wire to it. Actually I've already done that, but I've tried to interpret the code and it sounds like that ground wire also has to be bonded to any grounding leads connected to a grounding rod the house might be using.

What's the correct thing to do here?

joecaption 12-07-2012 06:54 AM

Go back and add where you live to your profile.

NJMarine 12-07-2012 07:30 AM

Without getting to technical this is whatt was probably done. The dishwasher frame was bonded and grounded to the copper pipe.
A wire is run from the frame to the copper pipe. This bonds the frame which stops someone getting shock and grounds the dishwasher which allows faults to be cleared by tripping the circuit breaker.

jeffnc 12-07-2012 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJMarine (Post 1068187)
Without getting to technical this is whatt was probably done. The dishwasher frame was bonded and grounded to the copper pipe.
A wire is run from the frame to the copper pipe. This bonds the frame which stops someone getting shock and grounds the dishwasher which allows faults to be cleared by tripping the circuit breaker.

Are you joking with me? I understand electricity.

If anyone has an answer to my actual question I'd really appreciate it.

AllanJ 12-07-2012 07:44 AM

To properly ground the dishwasher you run a ground wire (same size 12 or 14 gauge as the circuit conductors) from the dishwasher frame to the ground bus bar (terminal strip) in the breaker panel where its breaker is. This equipment grounding conductor may follow any route convenient for you.

Should this EGC first reach a fat ground wire (grounding electrode conductor) between the panel and a ground rod or water pipe, it can end and be clamped on there.

If the power feed cable already contains an EGC then so much the better.

TTW 12-07-2012 07:48 AM

Older code allowed a ground wire to be run to any convenient water pipe, say to ground a receptacle. The 2011 code does not allow this, but recommends protecting receptacles with no ground with GFCI.

Where you live will determine the version of code that applies, not all areas have adopted 2011.

You may also be grandfathered on this stuff.

I would ground to the water pipe with a proper clamp (not just wrapped around) or run new wire.

You should also ensure that your main service is bonded to the water pipe where it enters your house with # 4 (200 amp service) or #6 (under 200 amps) copper wire.

NJMarine 12-07-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1068192)
Are you joking with me? I understand electricity.

If anyone has an answer to my actual question I'd really appreciate it.

I posted information so that not just you could read and get posssible get something out of it, but others as well, since this is DIY forum.
TTW is correct in his post.

stickboy1375 12-07-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1068161)

What's the correct thing to do here?

Run a new circuit and be done with it....

jeffnc 12-07-2012 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTW (Post 1068200)
You should also ensure that your main service is bonded to the water pipe where it enters your house with # 4 (200 amp service) or #6 (under 200 amps) copper wire.

Yeah, it's not. As I said, I added a clamp there myself, but stopped short of connecting the ground wire to the dishwasher because as I reread the code it became unclear.

Rochsolid 12-07-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc

Are you joking with me? I understand electricity.

If anyone has an answer to my actual question I'd really appreciate it.

If your gonna cop an attitude with someone who is trying to help you out, because you a clearly over your head here, my advice is to hire an electrician

TTW 12-07-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1068552)
Yeah, it's not. As I said, I added a clamp there myself, but stopped short of connecting the ground wire to the dishwasher because as I reread the code it became unclear.

Not talking about the dishwasher here.

I am talking about the main electrical panel being ground to the water pipe. It must be bonded to the water pipe within 5 feet of where the pipe enters your home.

If you ground other things to the water piping, but the main panel is not properly grounded to the water piping, it will do you no good. In your case, the water piping is being used as a grounding conductor. I am assuming copper pipe and soldered joints. There also should be a supplemental grounding conductor, an 8 foot ground rod, (and possibly 2 depending on local codes), also connected to the main panel or meter base.

This is not just a one point thing, it is a whole "system".

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...undRods2-1.jpg

Stubbie 12-07-2012 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1068192)
Are you joking with me? I understand electricity.

If anyone has an answer to my actual question I'd really appreciate it.

Assuming that the proper bonding has been done with the house electrical service and all the water pipes are metal ...copper etc.. what NJ Marine said would be accurate. Only thing that might cause an issue is if you connected to the hot water pipe instead of the cold.

TTW 12-07-2012 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubie (Post 1068561)
Assuming that the proper bonding has been done with the house electrical service and all the water pipes are metal ...copper etc.. what NJ Marine said would be accurate. Only thing that might cause an issue is if you connected to the hot water pipe instead of the cold.

You should bond across the hot water heater!


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...WHeatbond2.jpg

jeffnc 12-07-2012 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTW (Post 1068560)
Not talking about the dishwasher here.

I am talking about the main electrical panel being ground to the water pipe. It must be bonded to the water pipe within 5 feet of where the pipe enters your home.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. There's nothing connected within the first 20 feet of water pipe entering the crawlspace from the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTW (Post 1068560)
If you ground other things to the water piping, but the main panel is not properly grounded to the water piping, it will do you no good.

OK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTW (Post 1068560)
In your case, the water piping is being used as a grounding conductor.

I'm not sure it is. Other than that badly connected wire in the vicinity, which might or might not have been used by the dishwasher, I don't see any evidence of anything being connected to the copper piping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTW (Post 1068560)
There also should be a supplemental grounding conductor, an 8 foot ground rod, (and possibly 2 depending on local codes), also connected to the main panel or meter base.

It's time to head deeper into the crawlspace jungle and see if I can figure this out.

Thanks for the code quote.

TTW 12-07-2012 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1068567)
Yeah, that's what I was talking about. There's nothing connected within the first 20 feet of water pipe entering the crawlspace from the ground.



OK.



I'm not sure it is. Other than that badly connected wire in the vicinity, which might or might not have been used by the dishwasher, I don't see any evidence of anything being connected to the copper piping.



It's time to head deeper into the crawlspace jungle and see if I can figure this out.

Thanks for the code quote.

See if there is a bare copper wire, about the thickness of a pencil, going into your main panel, or into your meter box outside and if there is, see if you can find where it or they originate.


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