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Old 04-22-2012, 06:23 PM   #16
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Yes.

Also use a pigtail when two wires want to go under one screw; wrap the pigtail end around the screw and its other end to the two other wires in question.
Gotcha, I think I might have to double check all of my plugs to verified I pigtailed the grounds and such. As for hots/neutrals for a receptacle, I've been tying each wire into a separate holder. The plugs I have from lowes have 4 screws (two on each side), and each screw has a plate under it that can take a wire on both sides of the screw. So I'm sure I got that right, but the grounds...I think I seriously didn't pigtail some. Will definitely be double checking that all.

What's the consensus on running 14/3 to the breaker box and tying it to a breaker, with the red conductor simply pulled back and not used. Is that allowed by code?

Thanks again everyone for the help, although I could use less of the sarcasm/criticism that someone else put in a couple posts back.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:29 PM   #17
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Sure you can use 14/3 and leave the red unused (put a wire nut on both ends). No code issues.

As far as the sarcasm- we all need to have a little fun.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:24 PM   #18
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Sure you can use 14/3 and leave the red unused (put a wire nut on both ends). No code issues.

As far as the sarcasm- we all need to have a little fun.
Thanks. As for the fun, that's cool, but the "You're not the first one to make this mistake, get in line" comment rubbed off the wrong way, that's all.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:41 AM   #19
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i'm not sure of the exact nature of this particular installation but it appears as if it MAY be acceptable to use 14 wire for the luminare, under the tap rule exceptions of 210.19(4). electricians, what say ye?
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #20
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i'm not sure of the exact nature of this particular installation but it appears as if it MAY be acceptable to use 14 wire for the luminare, under the tap rule exceptions of 210.19(4). electricians, what say ye?
Absolutely not.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:39 AM   #21
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Absolutely not.
what about a single lighting outlet, less than 18" from the switch? highly unlikely this is the situation of the original poster but per exception 1(c) of 210.19(4), i believe it would be acceptable to run 14 from the switch to the lighting outlet in that instance, even if it was a 20A breaker with 12 from the breaker to the switch.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:45 AM   #22
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what about a single lighting outlet, less than 18" from the switch? highly unlikely this is the situation of the original poster but per exception 1(c) of 210.19(4), i believe it would be acceptable to run 14 from the switch to the lighting outlet in that instance, even if it was a 20A breaker with 12 from the breaker to the switch.
What Househelper said!!
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:53 AM   #23
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What Househelper said!!
is there a code reference or similar that you can provide which explicitly prohibits the situation i described? if it is not okay, then so be it but i would like to understand why it is not allowed.

don't get me wrong, i'd do it all at 12 on a 20. i'm just trying to see what the actual rule is.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:10 AM   #24
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The wiring to a luminaire (light) is considered a branch circuit not a tap, so the tap rules do not apply. The only way a smaller wire could be used with a lighting fixture is if it supplied with and is an integral part of the fixture.

See the definition of a branch circuit in Article 100.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:35 AM   #25
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The wiring to a luminaire (light) is considered a branch circuit not a tap, so the tap rules do not apply. The only way a smaller wire could be used with a lighting fixture is if it supplied with and is an integral part of the fixture.

See the definition of a branch circuit in Article 100.
what about the definition of a tap conductor, as defined in 240.3? a tap conductor is simply a conductor that has overcurrent protection upstream which exceeds the ampacity rating of the conductor. i would argue the 14 from the switch to the light is a tap conductor and this acceptable (if within 18").
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:42 AM   #26
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I think the tap rules are under the service and feeders section, not for branch circuits.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:47 AM   #27
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I think the tap rules are under the service and feeders section, not for branch circuits.
nope, there are tap rules for branch circuits as well, different from feeders. see 240.21(A), which points to 210.19 and 210.20.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #28
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is there a code reference or similar that you can provide which explicitly prohibits the situation i described? if it is not okay, then so be it but i would like to understand why it is not allowed.

don't get me wrong, i'd do it all at 12 on a 20. i'm just trying to see what the actual rule is.
Even if you could fine a slight loophole for this, which there is not, WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER??? Just to say there is a loophole?
All that will do is let inexperienced DIYers twist into thinking it is OK in other cases.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #29
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Even if you could fine a slight loophole for this, which there is not, WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER??? Just to say there is a loophole?
All that will do is let inexperienced DIYers twist into thinking it is OK in other cases.
oh, don't get me wrong, i wouldn't bother running the smaller conductor. if it is a 20 amp breaker, i'm running 12 all the way.

that being said, i don't think it is a 'loophole'. exception 1(c) to 210.19(4) explicitly states it is okay to run 14 to an individual non-receptacle outlet if the tap is less than 18" long (and the load doesn't exceed 15 amps). table 210.24 also indicates 14 for taps all the way up to 30 amp circuits.

so why do these exceptions exist? why even show 14 in the summary table 210.24? i'm not trying to confuse folks or 'cheat the code'. i'm personally trying to understand why these exceptions exist since they seem odd to me.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:40 PM   #30
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This discussion needs to take place over at www.electriciantalk.com, not at a site for DIY'ers and amatures. The last thing we need is a H/O tapping off 20A circuits with #14 "because they read it somewhere", but didn't bother reading the entire thread.
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Last edited by electures; 04-25-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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