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Old 05-23-2013, 05:59 AM   #106
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by hammerlane View Post
I will have to make bigger canvases for diagrams to show basement located switches for upper floor fixtures
You don't actually have to draw the line that long, just put a break in it.

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:09 AM   #107
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by hammerlane
I will have to make bigger canvases for diagrams to show basement located switches for upper floor fixtures
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:26 AM   #108
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


PHP Code:
http://code.necplus.org/ 
2011 NEC






210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.



************************************************** ******
Comment by the people who wrote the BOOK ....






A receptacle, controlled by a wall switch, and supplied by other than the circuits covered in 210.11(C)(1) and (2) is permitted to be used as the required lighting outlet in other than kitchens and bathrooms. Exhibit 210.28 shows a switched receptacle supplied by a 15-ampere general-purpose branch circuit in a dining room. See 210.52 for receptacle outlet spacing requirements where switched receptacles are used.



************************************************** *******



Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).

(a) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.

(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.

(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.

Exception to (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c): In hallways, in stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.



************************************************** **
Comment by the people who wrote the BOOK ....



The requirements of 210.70(A) cover the need for adequate lighting and proper control and location of switching for that lighting in order to facilitate safe movement of dwelling unit occupants. Although 210.70(A)(2)(b) calls for a switched lighting outlet at outdoor entrances and exits, it does not prohibit a single lighting outlet, if suitably located, from serving more than one door.

A wall switch–controlled lighting outlet is required in the kitchen and in the bathroom. A receptacle outlet controlled by a wall switch is not permitted to serve as a lighting outlet in these rooms. Occupancy sensors are permitted to be used for switching lighting outlets in habitable rooms, kitchens, and bathrooms provided they are equipped with a manual override or are used in addition to regular switches.


************************************************** *
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:50 AM   #109
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
PHP Code:
http://code.necplus.org/ 
2011 NEC






210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.



************************************************** ******
Comment by the people who wrote the BOOK ....






A receptacle, controlled by a wall switch, and supplied by other than the circuits covered in 210.11(C)(1) and (2) is permitted to be used as the required lighting outlet in other than kitchens and bathrooms. Exhibit 210.28 shows a switched receptacle supplied by a 15-ampere general-purpose branch circuit in a dining room. See 210.52 for receptacle outlet spacing requirements where switched receptacles are used.



************************************************** *******



Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).

(a) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.

(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.

(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.

Exception to (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c): In hallways, in stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.



************************************************** **
Comment by the people who wrote the BOOK ....



The requirements of 210.70(A) cover the need for adequate lighting and proper control and location of switching for that lighting in order to facilitate safe movement of dwelling unit occupants. Although 210.70(A)(2)(b) calls for a switched lighting outlet at outdoor entrances and exits, it does not prohibit a single lighting outlet, if suitably located, from serving more than one door.

A wall switch–controlled lighting outlet is required in the kitchen and in the bathroom. A receptacle outlet controlled by a wall switch is not permitted to serve as a lighting outlet in these rooms. Occupancy sensors are permitted to be used for switching lighting outlets in habitable rooms, kitchens, and bathrooms provided they are equipped with a manual override or are used in addition to regular switches.


************************************************** *

You're still not grasping what you are reading.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:11 AM   #110
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Sorry, Philly. None of the handbook is enforceable. That book is just the authors opinion and their interpretation of the actual code.

The part about the location of occupancy sensors (exception 2) does say usual. But you continue to ignore that the code does not mandate the switch to be near the door for a habitable room when not controlled by an occupancy sensor. Occupancy sensors need to see the person enter the room. Since multiple beams need to be broken before the sensor turns on, mounting the sensor on the side of the doorway works better than walking straight towards the sensor.

The next time you get an inspection, ask your inspector to show you in print where the NEC requires a switch for a habitable room to be.

You could also read through this thread.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/light...ing-room-1592/
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Last edited by Jim Port; 05-23-2013 at 08:14 AM. Reason: added link
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:03 AM   #111
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Sorry, Philly. None of the handbook is enforceable. That book is just the authors opinion and their interpretation of the actual code.

The part about the location of occupancy sensors (exception 2) does say usual. But you continue to ignore that the code does not mandate the switch to be near the door for a habitable room when not controlled by an occupancy sensor. Occupancy sensors need to see the person enter the room. Since multiple beams need to be broken before the sensor turns on, mounting the sensor on the side of the doorway works better than walking straight towards the sensor.

The next time you get an inspection, ask your inspector to show you in print where the NEC requires a switch for a habitable room to be.

You could also read through this thread.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/light...ing-room-1592/
do you have any idea WHO the author is ??? .... what handbook ??


NEXT

exception .... as i said before ...

WHY do one need an exception ...... IF there is no code stating location ???

the operative word/words is/are ....customary location ....or IN THE HABITAL ROOM


or as you all pointed out read the whole sentence

"At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room"

that is IN every room ... then there are exceptions to that

If there was NO switch require IN the room there would be NO need for an exception !!!!
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Last edited by Philly Master; 05-23-2013 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:12 AM   #112
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Sorry, Philly. None of the handbook is enforceable. That book is just the authors opinion and their interpretation of the actual code.

The part about the location of occupancy sensors (exception 2) does say usual. But you continue to ignore that the code does not mandate the switch to be near the door for a habitable room when not controlled by an occupancy sensor. Occupancy sensors need to see the person enter the room. Since multiple beams need to be broken before the sensor turns on, mounting the sensor on the side of the doorway works better than walking straight towards the sensor.

The next time you get an inspection, ask your inspector to show you in print where the NEC requires a switch for a habitable room to be.

You could also read through this thread.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/light...ing-room-1592/

LOL and if you are not familiar with the NFPA .... here are some of the codes they are responsible for ....

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/li..._standards.asp

ie ...

NFPA 70 National Electrical Code®

NFPA 70A National Electrical Code® Requirements for One- and Two-Family Dwellings
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Last edited by Philly Master; 05-23-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:17 AM   #113
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Philly, this is not that tough, really. The code is telling you that the lighting outlet needs to be in the habitable room and needs to be controlled by a switch. PERIOD. The location of the switch is left up to the installer.

You are reading the exception backwards. The exception is that the occupancy sensor needs to be in the room for which it controls the lighting outlet. Any other habitable room switch can be wherever.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:20 AM   #114
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Philly, this is not that tough, really. The code is telling you that the lighting outlet needs to be in the habitable room and needs to be controlled by a switch. PERIOD. The location of the switch is left up to the installer.

You are reading the exception backwards. The exception is that the occupancy sensor needs to be in the room for which it controls the lighting outlet. Any other habitable room switch can be wherever.
READ THE WHOLE SENTENCE ..

Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.


so what does this mean agian ??

(1) in addition to wall switches or

(2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #115
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


You have again taken something out of the context to which it applies. This only applies to occupancy sensors. The second part of this is that there is a means to ensure the lighting can remain on while someone is in the room.

In addition to wall switches simply means that there are now two means of controlling the lighting outlet. Or you could install an occupancy sensor with a manual over-ride in the usual location.

The exception is telliing you where to mount the switch as opposed to an unspecified location allowed for the other habitable room switch locations.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:58 AM   #116
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
You have again taken something out of the context to which it applies. This only applies to occupancy sensors. The second part of this is that there is a means to ensure the lighting can remain on while someone is in the room.

In addition to wall switches simply means that there are now two means of controlling the lighting outlet. Or you could install an occupancy sensor with a manual over-ride in the usual location.

The exception is telliing you where to mount the switch as opposed to an unspecified location allowed for the other habitable room switch locations.
these two things are opposite from what you have been saying ....

DEFINE the USUAL SWITCH LOCATION ....


oh so the code says where to mount the switch ???


I leart this when i went to school .....and i did go to school to learn code and continuing edumacations ...

but my kids will be the first to say i cannot spell worth a you know what ....LOL
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:05 AM   #117
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


located at a customary wall switch location

Philly, I think the above is the code reference (not usual).

Does not the use of the word customery (as opposed to required), even imply that placement of the light switch is a design criteria and not a code dictate.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:12 AM   #118
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Philly, try this link.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthrea...tch%2Blocation
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:17 AM   #119
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
....


oh so the code says where to mount the switch ???
This only applies if an occupancy sensor is used for the habitable room. Otherwise you can mount the switch wherever your heart desires. This is the exception when the sensor is used.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:24 AM   #120
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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located at a customary wall switch location

Philly, I think the above is the code reference (not usual).

Does not the use of the word customery (as opposed to required), even imply that placement of the light switch is a design criteria and not a code dictate.

as stated before the code is not for the UNTRAINED ..... so customary would be to a trained electricain ... that is taught where that is ....

and for me that is at the door somewhere in or out ..of the doorway ...just MHO

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