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Old 05-22-2013, 04:42 PM   #91
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Well, I'll chime in. Stickboy and Jim are right.

Put another way, the articles says only that the outlet be switch controlled.

Philly, where does it say that the switch must be in the same room? It doesn't.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:47 PM   #92
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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AND besides the pragmatics of completing a specific project, I think the discussion and insight offered by such discussion is one of this sites greatest attributes.

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Some people get annoyed with the discussion of code, but the fact is, why give out false information? If it isn't code, why tell someone that's there only choice? IMO, let the home owner make his own choice in what he wants, as long as it meets code, too many people never really learn the codes, and just regurgitate what they were taught in the trade, which happens to be completely wrong most of the time... People need to start self educating themselves and stop being lemmings.


I have gotten into so many discussions about certain code topics, and i've yet to see someone eat crow and say "thank you for educating me", seriously, there is nothing wrong with being wrong and corrected, but for the love of god, stop fighting it...

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Old 05-22-2013, 09:24 PM   #93
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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AGB, the intent cannot be enforced. Only what is written. Also the handbook is just another opinion and carries no more weight than anyone else's.

...
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Good point!


I just wanted to make the point to Philly Master and others reading this thread that he is not alone and that other obviously respected professionals see things as he does.

Well you guys are the electrical gurus, but I think there is this concept called “reasonable interpretation” that enters into these things. It seems to me that just because the wording of 210.70 doesn’t pinpoint where a wall-switch should be placed, it doesn’t follow that 210.70 isn’t actually putting real constraints on the location of the switch. Just because it isn’t limiting the location to a point, or a small set of points, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t limiting the location to a sphere.

It seems to me that when talking about lighting, a “wall switch-controlled” light is familiar to everyone, and thus would need no further definition by the authors of 210.70. In other words, they would reasonably assume that everyone knows what they mean by a “wall switch”. In addition, it seems to me the placement of wall-switches for lighting are also associated with a very limited set of locations, that is, these are locations which have a long history, which have been historically set by custom, and would be locations also familiar to everyone. Thus, I would think the authors of 210.70 would also reasonably assume that they would not need to define these locations.

In other words, for lighting, the term wall switch-controlled does not need to be expounded upon because it strongly implies type and acceptable locations, and a “reasonable interpretation” would recognize that, and placement of a switch in a location that typically a person could not find, or would have great difficulty finding, would be a violation of 210.70. IMHO
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #94
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Good point!


I just wanted to make the point to Philly Master and others reading this thread that he is not alone and that other obviously respected professionals see things as he does.

Well you guys are the electrical gurus, but I think there is this concept called “reasonable interpretation” that enters into these things. It seems to me that just because the wording of 210.70 doesn’t pinpoint where a wall-switch should be placed, it doesn’t follow that 210.70 isn’t actually putting real constraints on the location of the switch. Just because it isn’t limiting the location to a point, or a small set of points, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t limiting the location to a sphere.

It seems to me that when talking about lighting, a “wall switch-controlled” light is familiar to everyone, and thus would need no further definition by the authors of 210.70. In other words, they would reasonably assume that everyone knows what they mean by a “wall switch”. In addition, it seems to me the placement of wall-switches for lighting are also associated with a very limited set of locations, that is, these are locations which have a long history, which have been historically set by custom, and would be locations also familiar to everyone. Thus, I would think the authors of 210.70 would also reasonably assume that they would not need to define these locations.

In other words, for lighting, the term wall switch-controlled does not need to be expounded upon because it strongly implies type and acceptable locations, and a “reasonable interpretation” would recognize that, and placement of a switch in a location that typically a person could not find, or would have great difficulty finding, would be a violation of 210.70. IMHO

Your assumptions are wrong, the NEC is only concerned that a switched lighting outlet be installed, the switch itself is purely a design aspect. It really is that black and white. Anything else is just an opinion.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #95
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


AGB,

The code only requires the outlet. It does not require a fixture to be installed on the outlet.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:39 PM   #96
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Further more, who mandates that a lamp actually be plugged into a switched receptacle, or a light bulb be scwered into a fixture? So who cares if a switch is in a room with no lamp to be turned on... It just shows how flawed some of the logic is on here.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:43 PM   #97
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Your assumptions are wrong, the NEC is only concerned that a switched lighting outlet be installed, the switch itself is purely a design aspect. It really is that black and white. Anything else is just an opinion.
Isn't that an opinion?
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:44 PM   #98
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Isn't that an opinion?
No, that is fact. Read the NEC...
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #99
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Isn't that an opinion?
Jim has gone above and beyond and explained it that the actual switch is not required near the switched outlet, I have posted articles explaining the same thing. I'm done at this point.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:27 PM   #100
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Yea.... I guess that's sorta my problem with some code ..... while they try to write it so definitively.... sometimes it gets to be an interpertive issue of what they are trying to say and accomplish.

Sorta seems this issue could almost be reduced/stated : "Code wants adequet and conveniently placed lighting and switches so people don't trip and fall on their ass in stairwells."
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... but I think there is this concept called “reasonable interpretation” that enters into these things. IMHO
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. It just shows how flawed some of the logic is on here.
Just for BS'n,.... I was trying to figure this out.... admitedly unsuccessfully.... and at risk of being justifiably callenged in logic.... seems you both are right... yet with conflicting logical opinion/argument.

Almost seems like we are held to strick interpertation by the beuacracies, but expected and/ or required to exercise a subjective common sense beyond (maybe not always within) that code.

Cat's cradle...?
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:03 PM   #101
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Some people get annoyed with the discussion of code, but the fact is, why give out false information? If it isn't code, why tell someone that's there only choice? IMO, let the home owner make his own choice in what he wants, as long as it meets code, too many people never really learn the codes, and just regurgitate what they were taught in the trade, which happens to be completely wrong most of the time... People need to start self educating themselves and stop being lemmings.


I have gotten into so many discussions about certain code topics, and i've yet to see someone eat crow and say "thank you for educating me", seriously, there is nothing wrong with being wrong and corrected, but for the love of god, stop fighting it...
Stickboy, I, for one, enjoy all the discussion of code, because I'm always trying to learn. That's why I spent quite a bit of $$ on it (I haven't gotten the Handbook in print form, but I do have it online). I've also got the NEC on my HD, but I'm old fashioned, and like the hard copy - makes for easier study, for me.

Anyway, thanks to you, and all the others, who volunteer to keep us knowledgeable. I'm sure we can be PITAs. We're DIYers, who want to do it right, and safe.

I take exception with the bold, above, however. I've dined on crow more than once because of you
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:13 PM   #102
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


When it comes right down to it, the code wasn't written for the laymen, the hobbyists, and the DIYers.

A lot of time and effort is given to learning and comprehending the code, as a whole, and DIYers tend to look at an article real quickly, and end up finding what they want it to say, instead of taking time to make damn sure that it actually does.

I would imagine it would take a lot of years to MASTER the entire code, if it's even possible to Master it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:46 AM   #103
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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There are no codes for switches to be required in rooms/halls/stairs that enter/exit....
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lmao ....what ????
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Show me the code that requires it... I can use circuit breakers if I so wish.


this whole thing started with this ....

1) I feel it has been debunked ..

2) we can agree to disagree ...LMAO
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:17 AM   #104
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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this whole thing started with this ....

1) I feel it has been debunked ..

2) we can agree to disagree ...LMAO
We can do anything...
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:56 AM   #105
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


I will have to make bigger canvases for diagrams to show basement located switches for upper floor fixtures
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