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Old 05-22-2013, 08:25 AM   #76
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Wall switch controlled is an adjective that modifies the lighting outlet. The object of the sentence is the lighting outlet. It means the outlet cannot be unswitched or controlled by a pullchain. There must be a wall switch somewhere that controls the outlet. Kind of like the blue car ran the red light at the corner of First and Main. Blue is adding additional info about the car.

If it said what you think it does it would say something like "the wall switch shall be located in the habitable room for which it controls the lighting outlet. It shall be located within 12" of the entry point into the room. If the room has two or more entry points there shall be a switch at all locations to control the lighting outlet."

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Old 05-22-2013, 08:33 AM   #77
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
(1) Habitable Rooms.
At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.



Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.


No switched receptacles in kitchens and baths. Other rooms can have switched receptacles.



Quote:
Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.
Quote:
Two things, one, occupancy sensors would not work properly if they were not mounted in the room being used as they need to see the thermal signature of the people. Otherwise they would turn off leaving people in the dark. This is why an over-ride is required.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:36 AM   #78
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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[/B]

No switched receptacles in kitchens and baths. Other rooms can have switched receptacles.



[B]

Two things, one, occupancy sensors would not work properly if they were not mounted in the room being used as they need to see the thermal signature of the people. Otherwise they would turn off leaving people in the dark. This is why an over-ride is required.

The whole point is that a switch needs to be in the room... Or in the customary location.....the idea that you can put switch in the basement and pass code is ridiculous ....
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:39 AM   #79
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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The whole point is that a switch needs to be in the room... Or in the customary location.....the idea that you can put switch in the basement and pass code is ridiculous ....
No, it's not, that is only your opinion. The switch location is strictly a design issue.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:41 AM   #80
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Can someone PLEASE post the complete text of the NEC article in question along with the exceptions?

disregard---I found it way back in a previous post on this thread

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Old 05-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #81
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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The whole point is that a switch needs to be in the room... Or in the customary location.....the idea that you can put switch in the basement and pass code is ridiculous ....
Customary, yes. Code mandated, no. With the exceptions of the stairways, attic spaces, etc, all the switches can be in one location and the inspector will need to pass the installation. They would have no code article to cite for a violation.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #82
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Wow really 4 pages of posts debating code on whether a switch is required close to the location of the lighting outlet.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:17 AM   #83
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Wow really 4 pages of posts debating code on whether a switch is required close to the location of the lighting outlet.
Some people are stubborn on what they believe is correct, it's a pride thing, personally I have no issues eating crow, it's the only way we really learn.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:55 AM   #84
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Its almost as if when you were young arguing that my dad can beat up your dad.
I am planning a one room ground floor addition to my home. I am gonna ask that the switch that controls the overhead light in this addition be installed in the 2nd floor spare bedroom. Just to see what the GC's expression or response is.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:10 AM   #85
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Its almost as if when you were young arguing that my dad can beat up your dad.
I am planning a one room ground floor addition to my home. I am gonna ask that the switch that controls the overhead light in this addition be installed in the 2nd floor spare bedroom. Just to see what the GC's expression or response is.
It's not arguing, it's basic code requirements, I do high end projects, we use a lot of radio RA, thus all the switches get installed in the basement, and the owners just want to use keypads and iPhones to control their lighting, just an example.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:17 AM   #86
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Some people are stubborn on what they believe is correct, it's a pride thing, personally I have no issues eating crow, it's the only way we really learn.

AGREE!!!!!.......... .......................

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Old 05-22-2013, 10:21 AM   #87
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


I would say it is about education and reading comprehension. Both Stick and I were trying to show someone that the code did not say what they thought it did. There are many that do things out of habit or urban myth but do not know why or if the code actually requires it to be done that way.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:38 AM   #88
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I would say it is about education and reading comprehension. Both Stick and I were trying to show someone that the code did not say what they thought it did. There are many that do things out of habit or urban myth but do not know why or if the code actually requires it to be done that way.
AND besides the pragmatics of completing a specific project, I think the discussion and insight offered by such discussion is one of this sites greatest attributes.

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Old 05-22-2013, 02:15 PM   #89
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Philly Master –

I’m just a lowly know-nothing just following the great discussions by you and the other electrical experts on this forum. So I can see why someone might tell me to … butt out!!

But I have the 2002 NEC Handbook – you know the book that has all those annotations by the editors. At the end of Section 210.70 the annotation reads:
Quote:
Section 210.70 points out that adequate lighting and proper control and location of switching are as essential to the safety of occupants of dwelling units, hotels, motels, and so on, as are proper wiring requirements. Proper illumination ensures safe movement for persons of all ages, thus preventing many accidents. …
Now isn’t it the case that these editors are very knowledgeable professionals, not just guys off the street?

Since their annotation makes the point “proper control and location of switching..” in the context of safety, I always thought that meant the 210.70 requirement, as interpreted by the editors, is that the switch must be someplace where you would expect it. What else could they mean by “proper location … are as essential to the safety…”?

In other words if the switch is in some “surprise” location – then would not safety be compromised and thus the intent of 210.70 would NOT be satisfied? I’m not a lawyer (old cliché) but I’ve wrestled with many requirements documents in my day, and there are explicit requirements, but also implicit requirements. Now being close to 70 years old, I’ve turned on/off a lot of wall switches in my day, so I think I know, as would most folks, what a “customary wall switch location” is!

So maybe this is going over my head, but it seems to me your interpretation is in agreement with the editors and would be the rational interpretation, at least in their eyes.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:29 PM   #90
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


AGB, the intent cannot be enforced. Only what is written. Also the handbook is just another opinion and carries no more weight than anyone else's.

I will also post from Article 90 Introduction.

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding.
The purpose of this Code is
the practical safeguarding of persons and property from
hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy.
This Code contains provisions that are considered
necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially
free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient,
or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.

Informational Note: Hazards often occur because of overloading
of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity
with this
Code. This occurs because initial wiring
did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An
initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for
system changes provide for future increases in the use of
electricity.

(C) Intention.
This Code is not intended as a design specification

or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

Until a specific location is written for the switch location like it is for storage spaces etc, the switch can be anywhere. Now if you will, imagine that the code called for the switch to be within 8" of the door frame on the knob side. Now install a double pocket door or a glass sidelight or wall. A switch could not be installed in either of those options in a compliant manner. There are too many field conditions to make it practical for this to be mandated.

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