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Old 05-20-2013, 08:11 PM   #31
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


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Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
I do not know how 3 ways got into it ..

Oh sorry... that was me... I got confused and thought we were talking about bedroom lighting.....

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:15 PM   #32
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by clydesdale
Posted for informational purposes only not taking a position on either side of the discussion but here is a section on lighting outlets from the 2012 International Residential Code.

IRC 2012
SECTION E3903 LIGHTING OUTLETS

E3903.1 General.
Lighting outlets shall be provided in accordance with Sections E3903.2 through E3903.4.

E3903.2 Habitable rooms.
At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exceptions:

1. In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be considered equivalent to the required lighting outlet.
2. Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are in addition to wall switches, or that are located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

E3903.3 Additional locations.
At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power. At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of each outdoor egress door having grade level access, including outdoor egress doors for attached garages and detached garages with electric power. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor egress door. Where one or more lighting outlets are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level and landing level that includes an entryway to control the lighting outlets where the stairway between floor levels has six or more risers.

Exception: In hallways, stairways, and at outdoor egress doors, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.

E3903.4 Storage or equipment spaces.
In attics, under-floor spaces, utility rooms and basements, at least one lighting outlet shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. Such lighting outlet shall be controlled by a wall switch or shall have an integral switch. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.
Yep, same as the NEC, a wall controlled lighting outlet is required, but this mentions nothing about where the switch is located, the NEC is moot on this because it is purely a design issue.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:25 PM   #33
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by clydesdale View Post
Posted for informational purposes only not taking a position on either side of the discussion but here is a section on lighting outlets from the 2012 International Residential Code.

IRC 2012
SECTION E3903 LIGHTING OUTLETS

E3903.1 General.
Lighting outlets shall be provided in accordance with Sections E3903.2 through E3903.4.

E3903.2 Habitable rooms.
At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exceptions:

1. In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be considered equivalent to the required lighting outlet.
2. Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are in addition to wall switches, or that are located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

E3903.3 Additional locations.
At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power. At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of each outdoor egress door having grade level access, including outdoor egress doors for attached garages and detached garages with electric power. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor egress door. Where one or more lighting outlets are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level and landing level that includes an entryway to control the lighting outlets where the stairway between floor levels has six or more risers.

Exception: In hallways, stairways, and at outdoor egress doors, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.

E3903.4 Storage or equipment spaces.
In attics, under-floor spaces, utility rooms and basements, at least one lighting outlet shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. Such lighting outlet shall be controlled by a wall switch or shall have an integral switch. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.

Clyde... Thanks for your objective and dis-interested amicus curiae brief.

But.... I just wanted to bit_h and note that building code is looking like tax code... we're lost in minimally productive beuracratic minutia/jibberish. CODE IS SO F"D WE ARE TALKING/ARGUEING ABOUT A F"N LIGHT.

Thanks Dr Phil

Best Peter
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:28 AM   #34
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


yes that is word for word from the NEC section 210.70


At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom


that rules out the ceiling and floor ....

NEC 2008 ....


COPIED SECTION NEC 2008;
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).
(a) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.
(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.
(3) Storage or Equipment Spaces. For attics, underfloor spaces, utility rooms, and basements, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:35 AM   #35
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
yes that is word for word from the NEC section 210.70


At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom


that rules out the ceiling and floor ....
A panel would be wall mounted, that would cover the wall switch requirement. Location is still a design issue, so in the basement they go.

Last edited by stickboy1375; 05-21-2013 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:34 AM   #36
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


I think everyone agrees this is a moot point because the scenario I present would never exist, but what I want to bring to the surface is the fact that a wall switch is not required in a room, or that three ways are required, this is one of those items that is just such a norm, that people think it is required by code, the only item that is required in a room is a switched outlet, not the switch itself....
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:37 AM   #37
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
yes that is word for word from the NEC section 210.70


At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable [COLOR=Red][B]room and bathroom
All that is saying is that a lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room, and shall be controlled from a wall switch. The location of this wall switch can be anywhere.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:44 AM   #38
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
yes that is word for word from the NEC section 210.70


At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom


that rules out the ceiling and floor ....

NEC 2008 ....


COPIED SECTION NEC 2008;
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).
(a) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.
(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.
(3) Storage or Equipment Spaces. For attics, underfloor spaces, utility rooms, and basements, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.

At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
and

At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces.


I know your trying to "win" ... but it is so simple ...

and for this forum to help the non experienced i am not sure that is helpful...
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:51 AM   #39
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
and

At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces.


I know your trying to "win" ... but it is so simple ...

and for this forum to help the non experienced i am not sure that is helpful...
I know you have a hard time reading the NEC... The only requirement that the switch be at the usual point of entrance is for storage or equipment spaces....

Stop reading the NEC for what you WANT it to say, and start reading it for WHAT is says...

And of course its helpful, why should someone install a switch where they didn't want it to begin with??????
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:15 AM   #40
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


This was on a test years ago:

In a stairwell for a four(4) story apartment building.
One(1) single pole switch controls a light bulb at the top of stairwell.
Switch can be controlled from each landing.
How??

no wireless switches, no clappers,
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:28 AM   #41
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


OK.... I'll bite.....

Is this just sorta trickery as to what a single pole could mean...

SPDT (three war)
DPxDT (4way)
DPxDT (4way)
SPDT(three way)
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:25 AM   #42
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC
OK.... I'll bite.....

Is this just sorta trickery as to what a single pole could mean...

SPDT (three war)
DPxDT (4way)
DPxDT (4way)
SPDT(three way)
I was wondering the same thing.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:04 AM   #43
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


The light(s) must be able to be turned on from each designated location. Use of three way (and 4 way, etc.) switches is not mandatory if "regular" switches are wired so that turning any one of them on will turn the light on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC
Is this just sorta trickery as to what a single pole could mean...

SPDT (three way) yes
DPxDT (4way) no
DPxDT (4way) no
SPDT(three way) yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosem637
This was on a test years ago:

In a stairwell for a four(4) story apartment building.
One(1) single pole switch controls a light bulb at the top of stairwell.
Switch can be controlled from each landing.
How??

no wireless switches, no clappers,
What would the work activity consist of? One or more English paragraphs explaining something? A wiring upgrade job?
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Last edited by AllanJ; 05-21-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:20 AM   #44
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
OK.... I'll bite.....

Is this just sorta trickery as to what a single pole could mean...

SPDT (three war)
DPxDT (4way)
DPxDT (4way)
SPDT(three way)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
The light(s) must be able to be turned on from each designated location. Use of three way (and 4 way, etc.) switches is not mandatory if "regular" switches are wired so that turning any one of them on will turn the light on.



What would the work activity consist of? One or more English paragraphs explaining something? A wiring upgrade job?
Alan.... looks like fun....

But what are the rules. What is definition of "regular switch" SPST or SPDT and no DPxDT (4way)... how many switches are you allowed at each location (floor)...

And why is not my answer correct... It is a technically a SP (single pole) switch at the bottom.


Peter

EDIT... and do the lights have to be able to be turned off at each location also?
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:51 AM   #45
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Two light switches in-line to lights?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
OK.... I'll bite.....

Is this just sorta trickery as to what a single pole could mean...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
What would the work activity consist of? One or more English paragraphs explaining something? A wiring upgrade job?

No trickery or play on words. I'll post answer tomorrow morn or maybe later this evening

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