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Old 02-04-2009, 11:17 PM   #16
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
There are occaisions where I feel the need for extra torque and I'll use my needle nose on the wingnut for and extra turn or so. Six #12's under a red nut would be one of those. I'll twist until the wires start twisting.

When splcing larger wires with blue wingnuts, I always use channel locks to complete the mission. Loose connections = bad.
I have been using the Grey Scotch Lock wire nuts. Once they are on, they are on, but they seem to take a lot of turns to get them on, you turn and turn and finally they are really tight.

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Old 02-04-2009, 11:20 PM   #17
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
I was always having trouble twisting 4 or more #12.
I found two things that made the job much easier:

1) Purchased a Klein Electrician's pliers
2) Strip more insulation proceed as Bob Mariani said.

It's incredible how much easier the job got when I started using the Klein pliers. I was using a much smaller el-cheapo brand before. The Klein cost me $35, but it was worth every penny!

FW
I use a standard Kleins, I think they are 913, they look like this:

Twisting wires (multiple 12's)-204624085.jpg


I'd be happy to buy a tool if it would help. I just don't know if there would be anything better than the Kleins I have.

I have been striping about an inch of insulation off, maybe I'll try a little more.

Jamie
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Last edited by jamiedolan; 02-04-2009 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:25 PM   #18
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
I've never had to splice 6 of anything in one box, but have worked with 5.
If you have 6 wires, maybe it's better to use two j-boxes, or at least larger than the 4" square, and use pigtails so you don't have more than 4 on one nut.
Even with 5 #12, I had to use the 4" extension ring to make it conform to code.

FW
I use box extensions on 4x4's or for larger boxes I am using the 6x6x4, 8x8x4, or 10x10x4 boxes, gives you lots of space.

I could pig tail it into multiple connections, I just thought there was a way to perfect the twist a bit.

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Old 02-04-2009, 11:49 PM   #19
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
5 or six is pushing it for a good connection. Try to avoid it but if you must....

Cut them all the same length. I can't stress this enough.

Strip them a full inch, line them up tight and straight with the ends close but in a slightly tapered patern. Hold the bundle tightly and ease the wire nut over the end with a little jiggle at the start of your twist. crank it down and finish it off with you favorite pliers.

Too tight will split the insulation on the nut, sometimes in the future.


Make it easy and use a blue or gray nut if you have room for it.
Ok sounds like I am on the right track. I always cut them to the same length and have them lined up. I do strip about an inch, and am using grey scotchlok's.

Are you saying to twist using the wire nut instead of pre-twisting? I have always pretwisted all my connections. Can I make a good connection with a wire nut without pretwisting the wires?

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Old 02-04-2009, 11:57 PM   #20
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Or use a wago..... Six #12's Imo is pushing it for a good connection. I'd trust a wago if i wasn't real good at wirenuts with this many wires under them. I have seen some twist two at a time together then stick the 3 pairs into the wire nut (blue one) and twist it on. There are a lot of wirenuts that are put on with cordless screw driver adapters similar to nut drivers... just an FYI.
The problem I have, is that it seems like one of the strands always wants to slip down about 1/4" to 3/8" from the tip, so the insulation doesn't stay lined up. It is often just one strand that I end up having trouble with. I don't think I get a perfect grip on the tips of all the strands with my 9's.

I'll have to get some photos of some of my connections one of these days and post them.

I've never been really comfortable with connections that aren't really secure on there own even without a wire nut.

How much of the connection, exposed wire do you leave when you put on the wire nut? After I snip the end off, I'd say I am about 1/2" on 12's and that seems pretty good with the greys.

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Old 02-05-2009, 09:05 AM   #21
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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How much of the connection, exposed wire do you leave when you put on the wire nut? After I snip the end off, I'd say I am about 1/2" on 12's and that seems pretty good with the greys.
Jamie-

For the 6 billion and 17 times that I've done this, I can honestly say that I've never really paid attention. My rule of thumb with inserting a pre-twisted set of wires into a nut is that, when the bundle bottoms out in the nut (before twisting it on), there should be no bare wire extending beyond the skirt of the nut. I'm not an electrician but I've oft found that this works well since by the time you've finished twisting the nut down, the bare portions of the wires are amply covered.

Oh yeah. Since I twist a lot of solid #12 (often several conductors at a time), I bought a pair of Klein Journeyman Lineman's pliers. For the tools simplicity, it is one of the best investments that I've made as far as electrical tools go.

Jimmy
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:00 PM   #22
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Are you saying to twist using the wire nut instead of pre-twisting?
Pre twisting 5 or 6 condutors is more difficult than simply using the nut. They want to slip out of position too much.

The only time I pe twist is I am reworking wire and the ends are all jacked up/bent.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:20 PM   #23
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


I've found that if you have enough wire length, and gently twist the whole bunch of them (from way back towards the box) as they come straight out of the box at you, they will remain lined up when you strip and twist the conductors.

Like has been said, it does take practice. And what I said about not using a tool to twist wirenuts; well, I recall that some wirenuts are made to fit into the nutdriver.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone made a terminal like the push-in type but with screws to really make a good connection?
Or, what about junction boxes with pre-installed buses, like mini neutral buses in panels that would accept up to 6 or 8 wires, one screw for each?
Guess that would be getting really expensive, and more time consuming than doing it the way it has been done for 75 years!

FW
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:44 AM   #24
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
I've found that if you have enough wire length, and gently twist the whole bunch of them (from way back towards the box) as they come straight out of the box at you, they will remain lined up when you strip and twist the conductors.

Like has been said, it does take practice. And what I said about not using a tool to twist wirenuts; well, I recall that some wirenuts are made to fit into the nutdriver.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone made a terminal like the push-in type but with screws to really make a good connection?
Or, what about junction boxes with pre-installed buses, like mini neutral buses in panels that would accept up to 6 or 8 wires, one screw for each?
Guess that would be getting really expensive, and more time consuming than doing it the way it has been done for 75 years!

FW
I was told that you can take the bar like the ground bars you would add to a panel, make your connections on that, bend them over and heat shrink it. I am not sure if that is legit or not...

Jamie
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:45 AM   #25
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
Pre twisting 5 or 6 condutors is more difficult than simply using the nut. They want to slip out of position too much.

The only time I pe twist is I am reworking wire and the ends are all jacked up/bent.
Yes exactly, that is exactly what I am dealing with, them slipping out of position. Atleast it happens to other people and it not just me.

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Old 02-06-2009, 10:56 AM   #26
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


Try pretwisting 14 and 12s together, 14s just slip away.
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:58 AM   #27
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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I was told that you can take the bar like the ground bars you would add to a panel, make your connections on that, bend them over and heat shrink it. I am not sure if that is legit or not...

Jamie

Those bars are used for grounds in boxes sometimes. Im not sure about the heatshrink tubing and live wires...
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Old 02-06-2009, 11:46 AM   #28
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Try pretwisting 14 and 12s together, 14s just slip away.
One argument for using #12 everywhere<g>
Normally though, I don't have #14 and #12 in the same box. Only when I'm splicing into a box that someone else wired. They used some #12 on 15A circuits. Seems that was what was available at the time<g>

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Old 02-06-2009, 11:48 AM   #29
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
I was told that you can take the bar like the ground bars you would add to a panel, make your connections on that, bend them over and heat shrink it. I am not sure if that is legit or not...

Jamie
That would be more work, wouldn't it?
Maybe I'll have to work on an invention<g>

FW
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:12 PM   #30
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Twisting wires (multiple 12's)


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Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
Those bars are used for grounds in boxes sometimes. Im not sure about the heatshrink tubing and live wires...
My understanding is, which may be wrong, is that as long as you use a UL listed product that is equivalent to the insulation on the wire that you are fine. i.e. 90 degree rated heat shrink for 90 degree wire.

Heat shrink is pretty quick to do. I have a little lighter that is made for heat shrink. I will post a link if I can find the page for it.

Jamie

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