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-   -   Trying to run 220machines to my grage what wire? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/trying-run-220machines-my-grage-what-wire-161802/)

Zepplin1 11-01-2012 02:00 AM

Trying to run 220machines to my grage what wire?
 
Ok i am putting in a sub panell in my bassment of my house since the whole box is full. I have 2 spaces to play with... ie 1 space to grage 110 and 1i space for a single outlet ill neverd use... i will use those 2 spaces for a 100a breaker going into sub panel (8 space)hardwired in to that.. then ill use a 60 amp breaker going 30into feet to side of house to put my gfi hottub breaker box (50a) on the wall....(side of house) using the main panel ground... then another 2for slots from the sub panel another 6Oa breaker goinalsog to the grage sub panel.. also 60asaid breaker i was thinking 4-4-4-4of aluminam direct barial 60 ft to grage panel btw... do i need 4lines or can i use 2 and slam a huge stake in the ground for that panells grounding ?

Zepplin1 11-01-2012 03:25 AM

So im thinking for the hot tub 30 ft run.. out of the sub panel 60a breaker i could use 6-6-6-8 aluminum using the main panels ground and nutral....going to the 50a gfi box...e
To the grage id use 4awg al. 2 strands.. to that 60a main breaker and put a pole out by the garage for my ground and nutral???????? Does thia sound fessible?

flasherz 11-01-2012 04:09 AM

60A breakers for the hot tub sub-panel ("GFI box") and garage will require a minimum of #2 AL wire. If you use a 50A breaker for the hot tub, you can use #4 AL.

If your runs are that short (30 ft), why not just use copper? It is slightly more expensive, but at those gauges it's much much better to use, and you can use #4 CU for 60A.

On both you must run all 4 wires, no exceptions. Previous versions of the code allowed for 3 conductors + ground rods only if there were no metallic paths (including even a simple phone line) between buildings.

You might want to delete your other post.

Zepplin1 11-01-2012 04:42 AM

The box for the hot tub has a 50a breaker in it gfi. Wich will be connected to the sub panel using a 60a breaker or 50 dont really matter... i understand that needs 4 wires.. power power ground and nutral wich will be grounded and nutraled threw the main box. The grage can i use 4-4 al and put a ground pole by that box? I only need 60a out there 63ft run

flasherz 11-01-2012 11:53 AM

No. Per code, you cannot do either of those.

#4 AL is not enough for 60A, for either the hot tub or garage. 60A breaker in the upstream panel means you need 60A wire, it doesn't matter whether there is a 50A breaker (GFI) downstream or not.

If you use aluminum wire, you need #2 for BOTH applications unless you make the breakers smaller.

As for the ground rod, as I said, it is no longer code compliant to use a ground rod with 3 conductors. Using only 2 for 240V (hot-hot) is not only illegal but dangerous. You MUST run all four wires, of size #2 AL or size #4 CU (copper).

Zepplin1 11-01-2012 03:19 PM

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...955&cmd=VIDESC

Zepplin1 11-01-2012 03:20 PM

This 4444was says 120to and 85i in duct thats not acceptable?

Speedy Petey 11-01-2012 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flasherz (Post 1042410)
No. Per code, you cannot do either of those.

#4 AL is not enough for 60A, for either the hot tub or garage. 60A breaker in the upstream panel means you need 60A wire, it doesn't matter whether there is a 50A breaker (GFI) downstream or not.

If you use aluminum wire, you need #2 for BOTH applications unless you make the breakers smaller.

As for the ground rod, as I said, it is no longer code compliant to use a ground rod with 3 conductors. Using only 2 for 240V (hot-hot) is not only illegal but dangerous. You MUST run all four wires, of size #2 AL or size #4 CU (copper).

Where are you getting this misinformation from??

#4AL IS good for a 60A feeder.

You do NOT have to run a grounding conductor the same size as the feeders. Equipment grounding conductors are sized according to T250.122, which is #8AL for a 60A feeder.

It was NEVER complaint to use a ground rod for an equipment ground or especially a neutral. Saying it is "no longer" complaint suggests that it once was.
I won't get into the specifics of older 3-wire feeders to detached structures since it does not relate to this new installation.

flasherz 11-01-2012 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 1042507)
Where are you getting this misinformation from??

#4AL IS good for a 60A feeder.

I based it on my Southwire calculator, which may have been more conservative than need be. The table in 310.15 says #4AL is good for 60A only on 75C and 90C rated cable. Now that he listed USE-2 cable for feeder, then yes I agree with you.

Quote:

It was NEVER complaint to use a ground rod for an equipment ground or especially a neutral. Saying it is "no longer" complaint suggests that it once was.
I won't get into the specifics of older 3-wire feeders to detached structures since it does not relate to this new installation.
I never said that ground rods for neutral was ever compliant. It was indeed compliant for a detached building to have a 3-wire feeder (which is where people get the idea to do it again), bonded at the detached structure panel, with ground rods, if there were no metallic paths between buildings. I said it earlier in the thread, and I said it again. I said:

Quote:

On both you must run all 4 wires, no exceptions. Previous versions of the code allowed for 3 conductors + ground rods only if there were no metallic paths (including even a simple phone line) between buildings.
and

Quote:

As for the ground rod, as I said, it is no longer code compliant to use a ground rod with 3 conductors. Using only 2 for 240V (hot-hot) is not only illegal but dangerous. You MUST run all four wires, of size #2 AL or size #4 CU (copper).
How is that not clear?

Speedy Petey 11-01-2012 05:05 PM

Sorry, I don't use a Southwire calculator for sizing conductors. I use the NEC, which is why I questioned it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by flasherz (Post 1042531)
How is that not clear?

It's clear that you said: "You MUST run all four wires, of size #2 AL or size #4 CU (copper)."....which is NOT true. The EGC does NOT need to be the same size as the feeder conductors.

flasherz 11-01-2012 05:53 PM

Actually, you said it was never compliant to use ground rods. It was at one point.

I admit you're correct in that ground doesn't have to be the same size - I was focused on current-carrying conductors. So a 4-4-4-8 would be fine too.

Speedy Petey 11-01-2012 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flasherz (Post 1042584)
Actually, you said it was never compliant to use ground rods. It was at one point.

No, it wasn't. I'll say it again.
It was NEVER complaint to use a ground rod in lieu of an equipment ground or grounded (neutral) conductor.

Grounding electrodes have NOTHING to do with equipment grounding. Never did.

flasherz 11-01-2012 06:25 PM

...and I never said it was either. I said it had been compliant to use a 3-conductor run, bonded to ground electrodes in lieu of a 4-conductor run that's now required post NEC 2008.

Speedy Petey 11-01-2012 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flasherz (Post 1042601)
...and I never said it was either. I said it was compliant to use a 3-conductor run, bonded to ground rods in lieu of a 4-conductor run that's now required post NEC 2008.

ONCE AGAIN. The ground rods had NOTHING TO DO with whether it was a 4c or 3c feeder.
The ground rod took place of neither the equipment ground nor the neutral.
Am I being to technical for you? :huh:


Quote:

Originally Posted by flasherz (Post 1042601)
Congratulations on petulant pedantism.

Your welcome. :thumbsup:

flasherz 11-01-2012 07:12 PM

Good luck with your project, Zepplin1.


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