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Three electricans said it was impossible!

18K views 35 replies 19 participants last post by  webhoist 
#1 ·
I own a forty five year old house. It began with the lights momentarily flickering. Over a week this progressed to the electricity in 80% of the house going out for a few seonds (long enough for the clocks, timers, cable box etc. to go out). We had assumed it was a neighborhood problem and called our neighbors. They had no problems. We called electrican #1. When he came everything was fine. He checked the breakers (we have two boxes, a new "main" with only a few breakers and the old panel with about 18 old type breakers no longer available new). The old box had two bad breakers we could not replace due to not having any replacements available at that time. All wiring on the two bad breakers had previous to our buying the house two years ago, been doubled up on other good breakers. Electrician #1 tightened all the wiring in the old box and said he could not identify the problem due to nothing being wrong while he was here (very nice guy). The problem got worst with more and longer lapses. Electrician #1 was not available. We called electrician #2. At this point 80% or our house would go out for hours several times per day. The day prior to electricial #2 arriving my wife made a discovery!!! When she turned on the stove the lights came back on. She called me at work and I told her it was probably coincidence but if it made the lights work great. I come home around 9:00 p.m. and the 80% is out. She tells me she has not turned on the lights (stove) so I could do it. I walk over to the stove and turn the stove on. Yes, all the electricity instantly now worked. By this time I had drop cords leading from the 20% of the electricity that worked to the critical lights and small appliances(all the wall outlets on one and a half walls of the house) due the outages lasting for hours). Electrician #2 came, replaced the four circuit breakers that he said were bad with used circuit breakers, charged $400, said the "stove turn on" was impossible and left. Sure enough the within a couple of hours 70% of the electricity was out. Yes, 70%. With the replacement of the breakers we now kept an additional 10% when the majority went out. Now the interesting part. I got home my wife had me walk over to the stove, turn on the stove and the lights came on. She had waited for me again, to again prove her system worked. Electrician #2 came back the next day. He had Edison come out and open the main box, he checked out the main box, changed the main breaker utilizing a used breaker because the new he had with him was the wrong type, took my perfectly good main breaker he had taken out, and charged me $185. Sure enough within a few hours it was out again. This time the same amount of circuits was out, no improvement. The next day Electricain #2 came back with his brother who was both an electrician and general contractor. He seemed to have much more experience. They looked around, opened the junction box leading to the stove, this time both testified to the "stove turn on" being a total coincidence or there might be a junction box under the floor that by walking over the stove we were fixing the problem but no the "stove turn on" was impossible. They then said I needed to pay $8,300 to rewire my house plus I had to have the holes repaired they left. Nothing improved, the problem progressed and the lights would go out every few hours and my wife would turn them on with the stove. The next day I called and asked Electrician #2 if he would come back based on the warranty. He said no but he did return my second payment of $185. Now we had recommended to us Electrician #3. He was booked and could not come out for five days. We waited. The problem progressed as to frequency with our 70% going out within hours each time. Once during this period (yes I was here to observe and now testify) turing on one burner of the stove did not fully turn on the electricity. The previously out lights came on dimly. My fifteen year old son suggested I turn on a second burner. Sure enough the lights came on full intensity. Since that times the "stove turn on" has worked instantly and 100% with only one burner. During the period we waited for Electricain #3 we determined all the areas of the house going out were on circuit breakers #12 & #14. Electrcian #3 came,checked out everything, changed a couple of wires to heavier stock, he said one wire was definitely loose in the old circuit box, and said the "stove turn-on" was impossible due it being on a totally different circuit. He also charged very fairly and did not recommend we rewire the house. We did get a bid and it was 30% of Electrcian #2's bid. He said if we had additional problems he would rewire the circuit for only the circuit breakers #12 &#14 at minimal cost comparatively. Last night the electricity in the 70% went out only once and the "stove turn on" worked.

I am now very curious about the "stove turn on" since I know from observation it works (at least 25 occasions and only once partially until the second burner was turned on) and three electricians have said it is impossible. We of course trid walking over to the stove and not turning on the stove nothing happened. Turning the knob definitely activated the circuits. Additionally I appreciate any insight into the solution to my problem. My apologies about the length of this post but felt all information was necessary in order to understand the problem. Yes, I was venting about Electrician #2.
 
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#27 ·
interesting. Firstly, nothing is impossible when it comes to house wiring. My first thought was exactly what JBfan has stated. It is the only place where they are sharing a connection. Have elec. 3 return and tell him the theory. I bet the light circuits with the problem are on the same bus as the stove? In other words, 220v in to main, splits to two 110 busses, one leg on left one on right. If he cant seem to find a problem, have him move just those two light circuits to the opposite bus. This should be a hour charge max. This could have been a main lug panel and converted to accept a main breaker. I would look here for loose screws, corrosion, black soot from arcing, etc. You could also (with covers removed from the panel) stand there in the dark when the lights arent working and have your wife throw the stove and you could see a small spark perhaps... although this is a long shot... if it were this bad the stove method would probably not work anymore.

good luck and keep us informed!
 
#28 ·
Think or the stove as a jumper wire between phases. When one phase opens up, the stove bridges single phase loads and adds them to the other phase.

There's a loose wire somewhere. Also, just for a sanity check, I'd examine the wiring for this stove, make sure it really goes back to the panel and doesn't make any interesting stops along the way.
 
#29 ·
For Future Reference

As a lineman for a power company, this problem is very common.

The original poster has a problem with one of the "hot legs" (not phases) either coming into his panel from the transformer or within the meter or at the panel.
Durring his partial power, one of the legs is open or not energized. The range is a 240 Volt device and is supplying electricity to that de-energized leg. There's nothing wrong with the range or the wiring with the range. That's a common question asked to homeowners about partial power calls, do the lights come on when you use the stove, dryer or waterheater?

Your best friend for any wiring project is a good voltmeter. Test voltage at the panel (assuming most homeowner DIYer's can handle and understand what they are looking at). Test one leg to neutral or ground, read the voltage reading. Then test the other the same. Then test leg to leg. You should be around 120V each leg and around 240V leg to leg. Now, if the problem exists and you tested the bus bars, CAREFULLY with dry leather gloves on, reach the test leads to the lugs above the main breaker and test those. That tells you if it's the main breaker or not. Remember to use extreme caution testing anywhere in the panel, especially above the main. You are nolonger protected with any form of fuse or breaker on a fault to ground/neutral. Leather gloves will infact insulate you from 120 Volts, but don't be stupid. Never have two potentials across you, a hot leg and a ground potential. Be the bird on the wire.

Side note: Power companies have increased voltage a while back from 110 volts to 115 volts now to 120 volts. Most houses on my system test about 121 volts each leg and 242 volts leg to leg, at the meter.

In testing, and you don't have 120 volts on one of the legs in the panel, you're done. You have checked the head end of your end of the service. The problem is out of your hands, and luckily for you, it's the power companies problem (possibily). Call them, it's totally free. In fact, call them immediately if you want, anytime. They'll send someone out, for free, and they can tell you in minutes where the problem is. The first thing I do is cut the seal and test power at the meter. Most times rodents in the ground have chewed into one of the cables, or it was damaged while being installed. Or if it's an overhead service, there's a bad connection. Other partial power problems occur after a lightning storm. The tub took a shot and is nolonger working properly, again nothing you or an electrician can do about it.
Some power companies have the customer own their secondaries from the transformer and some companies own the secondary all the way to the meter. Either way, they'll diagnose the problem real quick, for free (and love the 2 hr minimum overtime pay for it).

This is long and long threads are not always read, but the point is just call your power company with goofy power problems. Like I've said a number of times, they'll send someone out and they'll tell you real quick where the problem lies and whose responsible for fixing it. Oh yeah, it's free for you to have them do that. They just want your meter to spin. ;)
 
#32 ·
The problem seems confusing but simple enough from reading your testimony I would have to say you have an open nuetral which is giving,showing you 240v at the panel but 120v devices dont work without ground but when 240 is drawn adds balance to single open legs,, my advise is quit spending money and call your power company problem most likely to be bad u.g. or in the nuetral connection in an old 60 amp meter base.. guess you can figure out where I work.
 
#33 ·
three elect. said imposs...

I hope you took "X27R3's" advice about the ground or lack of. Don't waste your time calling your power co. Somewhere you've lost the your gnd, or you may have a loose buss.just curious... at home depot u can get an outlet tester (plug in type) for 5.00 , plug it in to one of the ploblem outlets and see what it does when the stove is on and off.. it should also tell you if you have a bad grnd.
 
#34 ·
OK, so now an equipment repairman is a residential electrical troubleshooter?
x27r3 has no clue, "decertify electricians", "report to licensing boards", and telling folks just what to pay for work. Gounds???
PLEASE! He needs come backdown to earth.

This problem, which is more than a YEAR OLD, I'm sure has been resolved, and I'm sure it was NOT grounds but a problem with one of the phases or neutral in the service. About 6 electricians and a lineman on this board have concurred to this fact.

IMO x27r3's post is insulting. He is merely a disgrunteled homeowner who has all the answers about how folks should "deal with" contractors. He is the type of person I take pride in telling NO when asked to do a job.
 
#36 ·
dont make me laugh, playintennis5274 I would'nt expect any other answer than that. Just goes to show who we are dealing with Speedy, and Mike. Deal with this every day, by the way, make a remark like ya did on Generators and hope we never meet. It's people like you that make my job even more dangerous than it already is.. THANKS


By the way for your info there is an obvious nuetral problem to what you replied. what do you think is a better ground? The system nuetral I am reffering to or your pathetic ground rod you keep reffering to.. Little advice dont answer back. Ripping on Lineman just aint smart man. we know our job and can bury anyone when it comes to it about theory and troubleshooting.
 
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