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Old 02-27-2009, 08:50 AM   #16
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


it all comes down to what will the INSPECTOR say? kc has stated he'd ok it, he IS an inspector. however, YOUR inspector maybe didn't get any last night, didn't get his 2nd cup that morning, whatever... and may or may not pass it. using 4", i'd feel confident MY elec. inspector would pass it. hey! i'll give him a calll and ask! brb.... $^%$%$#ing dialup....

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Old 02-27-2009, 08:57 AM   #17
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


ok...message left.... i'll let you guys know what he says when he calls back.

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Old 02-27-2009, 09:01 AM   #18
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


Sometimes, and just sometimes, good ol' common sense overrides the Code. A PVC sleeve through the wall will not hurt a thing and in fact is likely safer than letting the cords dangle below the TV.

It's funny how the Code police are much like cops, rigidly apply the law with no regard for the intent. In real life, you must take the code into consideration, then apply a little real world experience and common sense to produce a safe install.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:05 AM   #19
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


i'm thinking too, to impress the inspector, i'd use the rounded edged rings like i had to use for the power at the pole to prevent wire from scraping. Po)

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Old 02-27-2009, 09:11 AM   #20
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


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i'm thinking too, to impress the inspector, i'd use the rounded edged rings like i had to use for the power at the pole to prevent wire from scraping. Po)

DM
The inspector is never going to see it. Nobody is going to hang a TV, then call for inspection. This, in my opinion, does not constitute electrical work. AT best, it's sheetrock modification!
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:16 AM   #21
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


well, ok.... you got me there.... all my work is being inspected right now, so it's a given for me to think in that direction i guess....lol
i guess i'd still do it that way just to feel i did it right.

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Old 02-27-2009, 10:03 AM   #22
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


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It's funny how the Code police are much like cops, rigidly apply the law with no regard for the intent.
Hey! Not all of us!
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:18 AM   #23
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


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Hey! Not all of us!
No, I didn't mean inspectors, because almost all of them are pretty flexible, because every situation is different. I meant the code police on these forums. Alot of them have never been on a construction site, but can thump the hell out of a code book!
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:26 AM   #24
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


Perhaps some municipal inspector will pass this - municipal inspectors - at least in my state - are not financially liable for their judgment. When somebody hires me I'm not performing a "code inspection", but as a practical matter I am personally liable for my "errors and omissions" - if I observe the cord for a plug connected appliance going through the wall and I don't report it, I have no reason to be surprised if I'm getting a letter for my client's attorney demanding that I pay to have the wiring for the plasma TV brought up to code.

With that in mind , here's the code as I understand it, and my personal level of certainty about each issue:

1) That section of the code applies to court connected appliances. Certain.

2) Such a cord passing through a hole in a wall violates the letter of the code. Certain.

3) Some authorities having jurisdiction interpret that code section to allow a cord to pass through hold a Cabinet. Certain.

4) Most AHJs in my area will cite the same cord passing through a hole in wall as a violation. Certain.

5) Some AHJs may allow the same cord passing through a hole in a wall. Don't know.

6) You can't remedy the violation by running a standard cord from a cord connected appliance through PVC or metal sleeve on grounds that it's now running through a piece of "conduit". Pretty sure, the cord is not listed for that use.

7) As a practical matter, a cord running through a hole in the drywall between two rooms is a significant safety hazard. Hard for me to see that could be the case given reasonable care and precautions.

HOWEVER home inspection has taught me by practical example that people are not only careless, but will sometimes do breathtakingly stupid and dangerous things, and those things can produce liability, injury, and death.

To give you one practical example of somewhere between careless and stupid, someone unplugs an appliance for service, then someone in the next room (where the cord is coming through the hole the wall) "fixes" a floor lamp with the burned-out bulb by "plugging it back in".

A casual glance at one of the "News of the Weird" websites is sufficient to convince me that in a country with a few hundred million people running around plugging in lamps, somebody in the next room may eventually "win" the personal electrification lottery.

And I don't plan to be the person telling the surviving spouse: "However, It should be a great source of comfort to you that it was a one in a million accident"
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Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson

Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-27-2009 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:32 AM   #25
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
No, I didn't mean inspectors, because almost all of them are pretty flexible, because every situation is different. I meant the code police on these forums. Alot of them have never been on a construction site, but can thump the hell out of a code book!
We are not talking about a construction site where you run a cord under a door, or through a window.
We are talking aboout a finished building, puching a hole in 2 walls and putting a cord through it.
Sounds perminent to me, thus a code violation.
As stated before, no inspection is going to happen for installing the tv.

Oh yea. I have been on many construction sites!
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:40 AM   #26
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


It's my understanding that if the code doesn't specifically prohibit something, then it is allowed. If there is a section of code that specifies that you can't pass a cord thru conduit then its against code
Otherwise it is allowed
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:44 AM   #27
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


BTW, 40 years spent on and around construction sites has if anything increased my already very healthy respect for the fact that even when "reasonable" safety precautions are being observed seemingly inconsequential mistakes, omissions, or corner cutting can have very unpleasant consequences, and that the fact that you've been getting away with doing something for decades is no guarantee that it's not going to do away with you tomorrow morning.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:51 AM   #28
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


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We are not talking about a construction site where you run a cord under a door, or through a window.
We are talking aboout a finished building, puching a hole in 2 walls and putting a cord through it.
Sounds perminent to me, thus a code violation.
As stated before, no inspection is going to happen for installing the tv.

Oh yea. I have been on many construction sites!
I'm not saying it isn't bending the Code a little, but to turn it straight down based on a Code article is, in my opinion, being too rigid. You have to look at the setup. If the cord was running through a ragged hole, hacked with a hatchet into the wall, then I could see how it would be dangerous. I would not consider a TV as a permanent appliance, so, sleeving the wall and sticking the cord through is not a dangerous setup.

What I'm saying is, consider the whole setup and don't just cite a code article and flat out condemn it based on that. There are many instances we could find on any job where there is a technical violation, but given the conditions and surroundings, the AHJ let's it fly because it is not a danger.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:36 PM   #29
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


Yikes.. sorry i started such drama, i shouldnt have even asked that question becuase i doubt i would even leave it like that if i was showing my house. I guess i just wanted to post if in case someone said "DON'T DO THAT! THAT'S HOW YOU START A FIRE!" or something like that.

Or if someone had a better suggestion. (like the PVC).

it was stupid of me to ask about code when i fully planned on doing it anyway.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:42 PM   #30
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is there a distinction between "in-wall" vs "through wall" ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
It's my understanding that if the code doesn't specifically prohibit something, then it is allowed. If there is a section of code that specifies that you can't pass a cord thru conduit then its against code
Otherwise it is allowed
Not exactly. The code requires that many types of materials be used only in accordance with their listings and in compliance with their manufacturers instructions, for example conductors can only be used in accordance with their listing and I don't think you'll find the cord types generally used for cord connected residential appliances listed for use in conduit.

The logic (though the code does not state it exactly this way ) is that "The difference between genius and stupidity is that even the greatest genius is limited"... and that therefor you can't specifically prohibit every possible act of electrical lunacy that can be perpetrated with (for example) extension cords in advance of its "invention":







I can't tell you how many times I've heard:

"Yeah? Were does the code specifically say I can't do it? Huh?"

in such situations.


Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-27-2009 at 12:44 PM.
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