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Old 03-26-2013, 08:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Brian View Post
I've tried looking through some of that stuff, but don't really want to take hours and hours trying to complicate, what really should be very simple I'm sure. I know, I know...if it is simple why am I here!! I certainly didn't want to cause WWIII!!!

My initial question regarding the telephone cord wasn't meant to be that complex. I was merely hoping to be able to use a jumper cable that typically goes from the wall box to the phone itself. I'm guessing it's in the neighborhood of 20-24gauge wire, but not really certain. I get greg's point that if you were to open up about any electronic device you'd see similar sized wire in there probably handling much more than what I'm using it for. I'll be pushing 12v & likely 5amps through this entire 16.4' strand of LED tape lights, only 2' of which will be powered via the wire in question. If I'm figureing correctly, that's only about .60amps for those 2'. I can't believe what I would like to use won't work, but since I really would rather be safe than sorry and I certainly don't want to re-solder and run wires, if not, I'll likely just go try to find some 18 gauge wire. I actually found wire on ebay that is made for this, just not sure I want to wait 2-6 weeks for it!I already have holes in the cabinets and will be using those to run the wire through....right or wrong, that's what I'm doing, it won't be burried in the wall, it'll be tucked along the back corners of the inside of my cabinets.

The other question that seems to be an issue is the power adapter. I'm likely not using a driver, but instead a 12v 5a adapter made for these lights. I had been hoping what I had would work, but I see it should be between 2&5amps and mine aren't that big, so I'll just order that. It'll plug in, inside my cabinet where I have an outlet and I'll tuck it out of sight.

Thanks for all of the help!!
Here are my concerns.

Is this a UL listed lighting assembly or are you throwing together a hodge-podge of parts to create your own thing? If the later is the case, then it is in violation of the NEC.
If this is a listed assembly, then the manufacturers recommendations and instructions have to be followed. And I'm sure the manufacturer did not spec out phone wire.

As you can see by some of the heated comments between one of our amatures and several professionals, opinions differ. More information would be better. Also including your location in your profile is a big help.

Finally, as a licensed professional electrical inspector, I agree with busman and Stickboy. There is no way I would accept phone wire for what you are asking to do.

Additional information would definitly be helpful.

Regards, (V)

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Last edited by electures; 03-26-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:29 AM   #47
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A Hokie!!

I like you anyway!

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Have worked with many from GA Tech and many of my friends went there. I was accepted there for Graduate School, but the money was better in VA, so I stayed.

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Old 03-27-2013, 07:53 AM   #48
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[QUOTE=gregzoll;1146496[/QUOTE]

Greg, from the beginning, you started the "experience dropping" and the "insulting" as I'll show below. Don't start what you can't finish. I wonder if you've noticed that I treat people on this board with respect, UNLESS their posts show that they are posting irresponsible and incorrect information. I have the greatest respect for the DIY who truly embraces the NEC and comes here to get the information they need to perform a safe and legal installation. I also have the greatest respect for the Pros who volunteer their time here to help the DIY, when there is really nothing in it for them. So, in order of posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Stickboy1375, have you realized that I have you on ignore for a reason. I think that I know more about telephone systems, and what the wire can handle, due to 1) You may want to look up what a IC is in the Navy, and that my job was working on both switching offices on board my ship, for our IVCS phone system, and ship to shore phone system.

Also grew up with my father as a ESS-4 tech with the telephone system. He also retired as a Radio tech E-7 from the Air Force. You would be amazed at what kind of voltage a telephone line will take. It is when you start applying high amperage over 1 amp to the line, then you create issues on thinner jacketed wiring.
Here's where you started to try to convince us that phone wire was OK because of your excellent qualifications. Unfortunately, the NEC doesn't apply to ships and the Navy doesn't use it, so any experience you gained in the Navy is of very little benefit (codewise) to shore-based installations. I've worked over 20 years in new ship construction and know this to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Mark, for DC circuits, the rules are different. But I guees you missed that part, when it comes to how wireing dc circuits, you can get away with smaller gauges of wire.
This is just plain WRONG and you have not provided any reference from the NEC (or any other document) to contradict this. Whereas, I've pointed out where in Art. 90 it says the NEC is applicable to the situation the OP posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
That is beacause it is not in the Nec and does not apply, until the dc voltages start getting into higher voltages. 12vdc & 24vdc circuits are considered low voltage circuits.

Maybe you should do you homework, and go to work, instead of keeping this thread ongoing, since I do beloeve it made its point yesterday.

As for Stickboys ref., it only applies to the part of connecting feom the lv dc part to 120vAC. After that the NEC states that the rules only apply for termination methods, and is considered a lv circuit, which then 411 no longer covers it.

You and Stickboy appear that you do not know how to look deeper into the picture as to what rules apply and what does not.
Here you again say the NEC doesn't apply with no substantiation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
busman 411 is half of it. LV circuits are also covered under 800.
Here you try to cite the code and send us to the chapter that is specifically "Communications Systems". Totally irrelevant to the OP's situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Do you even have a clue what a Volt amp is? I am sure that I do, and where ever you came up with that info has nothing to do with the orig topic at hand.
Here is where YOU begin to get insulting, but despite how sure you are about your knowledge, you still haven't had the courage to explain to us all what a Volt-Ampere is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
electures, 725 is such an obscure article, same goes with 720, they do not apply in the OP situation. And yes 800 as a whole covers communications, but it covers more than that part.
Here's where you try to convince us that Art. 720 and Art. 725 are obscure. By obscure, I have to assume you mean that you haven't read them and therefore have no intention of using them. Art. 725 is specifically mentioned in Art. 411. There is no part of the NEC that is "obscure". It's all there for a reason and it all applies, if the NEC applies at all to the situation. For the OP it does. Oh, and Art. 720 specifically requires ALL conductors to be not smaller than #12, unless specifically permitted in Art. 411, 517, 550, 551, 552, 650, 669, 690, 725 and 760.

So, for all that, you've basically made a whole bunch of assertions without any substantiation and when you can't prove your point, you drop back to calling us (the professionals) bullies and belittling our experience and knowledge.

I've only gone to all this trouble to have a thread to point back to in the future when you continue to give bad/wrong information to DIYers, so they aren't tempted to take you seriously. I'm confident that if you want to do the same with this thread in the future to make me look bad, that I'll look OK based on the factual information I've provided.

To summarize for the OP, since I've hijacked his thread a bit, the answer is that there are three legal ways to do what you want:

1) Use the wiring methods in Chapters 1-4 of the NEC.

2) Install a Listed LV Lighting system IAW the instructions.

3) Install a Class 2 LV system IAW the rules in Art 725. Basically, if your source says Class 2 on it, get some Class 2 cable (frequently sold as thermostat cable, the jacket will say Class 2) and run it between fixtures and you will be code compliant.

Regards,

Mark
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Last edited by BigJim; 03-27-2013 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Questionable content removed from quote
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:11 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busman View Post
To summarize for the OP, since I've hijacked his thread a bit, the answer is that there are three legal ways to do what you want:

1) Use the wiring methods in Chapters 1-4 of the NEC.

2) Install a Listed LV Lighting system IAW the instructions.

3) Install a Class 2 LV system IAW the rules in Art 725. Basically, if your source says Class 2 on it, get some Class 2 cable (frequently sold as thermostat cable, the jacket will say Class 2) and run it between fixtures and you will be code compliant.

Regards,

Mark
Also, for the OP. Sometimes it helps to understand why, so here's my best:

1) Using Chapter 1-4 of the NEC provides rules for selecting the size (current carrying capacity) and insulation for a conductor based on a ton of factors, including length, environment, damage potential, temperature, etc.

2) Using a Listed Lighting System, this design has already been done by the manufacturer and approved by the Listing Agency, so you know that the conductors are OK for that system.

3) Art. 725 provides rules that can be used in place of Ch. 1-4 for power-limited circuits. There circuits are supplied by sources with limited power output and therefore have relaxed rules, but there are still requirements to be followed. In general, if you use Class 2 cable with Class 2 source you've met the rules and the wire can handle the power supplied.

I hope that helps.

Mark
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by electures View Post
Here are my concerns.

Is this a UL listed lighting assembly or are you throwing together a hodge-podge of parts to create your own thing? If the later is the case, then it is in violation of the NEC.
If this is a listed assembly, then the manufacturers recommendations and instructions have to be followed. And I'm sure the manufacturer did not spec out phone wire.

As you can see by some of the heated comments between one of our amatures and several professionals, opinions differ. More information would be better. Also including your location in your profile is a big help.

Finally, as a licensed professional electrical inspector, I agree with busman and Stickboy. There is no way I would accept phone wire for what you are asking to do.

Additional information would definitly be helpful.

Regards, (V)
I'm in Central Kansas.

As for UL Listing, I doubt it, as it doesn't say that anywhere that I see. It is also not something I'm throwing/hacking together. There are lots of these kits out there, but the one I happen to have in hand is this one: http://www.led-outlets.com/index.php...roducts_id=280
The power Pack I'm looking at getting is just like this, but will probably be purchased from Ebay: http://www.led-outlets.com/index.php...roducts_id=186
They actually sell everything as a complete kit, but my friend bought several to do his kitchen, planning on using some Low Voltage 'transformers' he already had in place. He decided he didn't like the cool color these put out, so he wanted to part with them. I had been looking for something like this to put in my daughters rooms, so I took two of them for that and figured I'd use the 3rd as under cabinet lighting in our walk in pantry to replace the zenon pucks that are in there.

Only thing needed for my girls rooms are the power supply, so with the addition of a power supply there will be no mods. In the pantry, I need to modify just in the sense I need several feet on a cabinet on other side of sink.

Also, looking at the adapters available online I don't really see that any of them say class 2. Not sure if that means I shouldn't use them or what. I will definately plan on using a class 2 wire.

I'll look more into this as I have time later today.
Thanks!

Last edited by Master Brian; 03-27-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:34 AM   #51
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I'm in Central Kansas.

As for UL Listing, I doubt it, as it doesn't say that anywhere that I see. It is also not something I'm throwing/hacking together. There are lots of these kits out there, but the one I happen to have in hand is this one: http://www.led-outlets.com/index.php...roducts_id=280
The power Pack I'm looking at getting is just like this, but will probably be purchased from Ebay: http://www.led-outlets.com/index.php...roducts_id=186
They actually sell everything as a complete kit, but my friend bought several to do his kitchen, planning on using some Low Voltage 'transformers' he already had in place. He decided he didn't like the cool color these put out, so he wanted to part with them. I had been looking for something like this to put in my daughters rooms, so I took two of them for that and figured I'd use the 3rd as under cabinet lighting in our walk in pantry to replace the zenon pucks that are in there.

Only thing needed for my girls rooms are the power supply, so with the addition of a power supply there will be no mods. In the pantry, I need to modify just in the sense I need several feet on a cabinet on other side of sink.

Also, looking at the adapters available online I don't really see that any of them say class 2. Not sure if that means I shouldn't use them or what. I will definately plan on using a class 2 wire.

I'll look more into this as I have time later today.
Thanks!
Do a search online for "Class 2 LED Driver". You'll get plenty of results.

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Old 03-27-2013, 11:54 AM   #52
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:11 PM   #53
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Bigjim pls don't lock this thread! I just made popcorn!
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:01 PM   #54
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:15 PM   #55
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Well I finally received a response from the manufacturer about whether or not the equipment is UL listed. iT states;

Dear friend,
Thanks for your mail.
We can not understand your meaning.
Could you please tell us what is your exact meaning?
Or pls tell us what item do you want to buy?
Waiting for your reply.
Have a nice day!

These units are not UL listed and therefore unacceptable for installation in a dwelling. I would not trust the power supplies and would be afraid of them starting a fire. We (professional electricians) have already established that phone wire is not code compliant. Please abandon this idea and find a product that is UL listed and NEC compliant. Then install it in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions. It is not worth the risk of fire and and risk to your family.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by electures View Post
Well I finally received a response from the manufacturer about whether or not the equipment is UL listed. iT states;

Dear friend,
Thanks for your mail.
We can not understand your meaning.
Could you please tell us what is your exact meaning?
Or pls tell us what item do you want to buy?
Waiting for your reply.
Have a nice day!

These units are not UL listed and therefore unacceptable for installation in a dwelling. I would not trust the power supplies and would be afraid of them starting a fire. We (professional electricians) have already established that phone wire is not code compliant. Please abandon this idea and find a product that is UL listed and NEC compliant. Then install it in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions. It is not worth the risk of fire and and risk to your family.
I did some more searching on ebay and found some of the power strips that are UL listed, I am guessing those should make all well? My only concern is that they are coming from China, where I know lots of stuff is copy infrindged upon, but then again...everything comes from china anymore....

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