Telephone Line Gauge? - Electrical - Page 3 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-26-2013, 10:36 AM   #31
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by busman

Would you care to point that out in the NEC?

Mark
That is beacause it is not in the Nec and does not apply, until the dc voltages start getting into higher voltages. 12vdc & 24vdc circuits are considered low voltage circuits.

Maybe you should do you homework, and go to work, instead of keeping this thread ongoing, since I do beloeve it made its point yesterday.

As for Stickboys ref., it only applies to the part of connecting feom the lv dc part to 120vAC. After that the NEC states that the rules only apply for termination methods, and is considered a lv circuit, which then 411 no longer covers it.

You and Stickboy appear that you do not know how to look deeper into the picture as to what rules apply and what does not.

Advertisement

__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:40 AM   #32
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


Also I already cited wher and why te term bell wire is used for lv wiring. Yes it all started with twisted pair #18 back in the day, but now it applies to any single or multi pair wire used in lv circuits, in the premise.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 11:03 AM   #33
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 518
Rewards Points: 298
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
That is beacause it is not in the Nec and does not apply, until the dc voltages start getting into higher voltages. 12vdc & 24vdc circuits are considered low voltage circuits.
Really. The scope or Article 411 is "lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less and their associated components." How does that not apply in this case? Also, there is nothing in Art. 411 that exempts you from applying all the rules of Chapters 1-4.

Maybe you should try reading the NEC and not just relying on all the hearsay (or heresy) you've picked up over the years.

The key point is that to use Art. 411 and not Art. 725, you need to be using a Listed Lighting System. If you can find a lighting system that specifies connections using "bell wire", have at it. A separately purchased LED driver and light fixture is not a Listed system in my opinion.

Otherwise, if we go with your interpretation, there are NO requirements on the secondary conductors of a LV lighting system and I can use 28 AWG conductors on a 600 VA transformer. You have the incorrect interpretation.

Mark
__________________
Licensed Master Electrician
Commonwealth of Virginia

Last edited by busman; 03-26-2013 at 11:34 AM.
busman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to busman For This Useful Post:
electures (03-27-2013), jbfan (03-26-2013), mpoulton (03-26-2013), stickboy1375 (03-26-2013)
Old 03-26-2013, 01:14 PM   #34
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


busman 411 is half of it. LV circuits are also covered under 800. So unless the wiring enters the wall, which in this case for the OP it is not, the article cited will not cover their install, other than the installation of the transformer, the use of CL-2 wire, and the proper termination of the connections, and that is it. All the rest that you and Stickboy are throwing out there is just white noise, because you are only looking at a small part of the big picture.

Also, no where was it stated that #28 could be used for a 600va transformer,
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?

Last edited by BigJim; 03-27-2013 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Removed questionable content
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:17 PM   #35
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


And actually in theory you could use #28 wire on a 600 volt system. The catch is that you cannot exceed 1 amp on that wire.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:45 PM   #36
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 518
Rewards Points: 298
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
busman 411 is half of it. LV circuits are also covered under 800. So unless the wiring enters the wall, which in this case for the OP it is not, the article cited will not cover their install, other than the installation of the transformer, the use of CL-2 wire, and the proper termination of the connections, and that is it. All the rest that you and Stickboy are throwing out there is just white noise, because you are only looking at a small part of the big picture.

Also, no where was it stated that #28 could be used for a 600va transformer,
OK, from the beginning. First off, Chapter 800 is communication circuits This is NOT a communication circuit. Now the following trail:

1) The NEC applies per Article 90, unless this is a ship, a railroad or a utility. It's not.

2) Since the NEC applies, the install needs to follow all of Chapters 1-4 unless excepted by some other APPLICABLE chapter.

3) One option is to follow the rules of Art. 725 and make it a CL2 system. This has already been discussed and requires a CL2 cable.

4) The other is to follow Chapters 1-4. What is the intent of Art. 411. It's there to permit LISTED LV LIGHTING SYSTEMS to have a few exceptions that aren't in accordance with the rest of Ch. 1-4. An example is the permission for open conductors, such as those that are so popular in restaurants. Art. 411 permits this if it's part of a listed system. This doesn't mean I can just string bare #14 conductors from my ceiling and clamp on some Malibu lights. That isn't a listed system.

5) The next question is, if I'm using Art. 411, do the rest of Ch 1-4 apply. The answer is yes and a good example is that LV landscape systems can use a cable that is not in Ch 3 or Ch.4, but still have to follow the burial depths in Table 300.5.

6) So, since the other articles apply, we go to 240. That tells us that conductors need to be protected at their ampacity IAW Art. 310. Since there is no listing for "bell wire" there is no way to protect it at it's ampacity and therefore it can't be used.

7) The only other option is, IF you could convince the AHJ that this wiring between the lights is "fixture wire" as used in Art. 400 and also that it is NOT "a substitute for fixed wiring" and NOT "attached to the building surfaces", then you might be able to use flexible cord or cable, That'd be a really tough sell.

If you want to poke holes in that reasoning, be my guest, but at least I've substantiated my claim with reasoning and code references, not some vague reference to a mythical DC code or LV code. In fact the NEC only specifically mentions DC in a few places. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are grounding and photovoltaics.

Mark
__________________
Licensed Master Electrician
Commonwealth of Virginia

Last edited by busman; 03-26-2013 at 01:49 PM. Reason: clarity
busman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:52 PM   #37
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 518
Rewards Points: 298
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Also, no where was it stated that #28 could be used for a 600va transformer,
The point is that, using your reasoning, there is no requirement for me to protect the "bell wire" in accordance with its ampacity. It doesn't have an ampacity, so that would be hard to do. My point was that LV systems have the components designed so that when used together they don't melt the wires.

Using your rules, I could put #28 on a 12V, 600VA transformer.

Mark
__________________
Licensed Master Electrician
Commonwealth of Virginia
busman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:53 PM   #38
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 518
Rewards Points: 298
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
And actually in theory you could use #28 wire on a 600 volt system. The catch is that you cannot exceed 1 amp on that wire.
I never mentioned 600V, just 600VA. There's a big difference.

Mark
__________________
Licensed Master Electrician
Commonwealth of Virginia
busman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 03:05 PM   #39
Lic Electrical Inspector
 
electures's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Great Police State of New Jersey
Posts: 1,761
Rewards Points: 1,102
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
busman 411 is half of it. LV circuits are also covered under 800. So unless the wiring enters the wall, which in this case for the OP it is not, the article cited will not cover their install, other than the installation of the transformer, the use of CL-2 wire, and the proper termination of the connections, and that is it. All the rest that you and Stickboy are throwing out there is just white noise, because you are only looking at a small part of the big picture.

Also, no where was it stated that #28 could be used for a 600va transformer, so quit pulling stuff out of your seat.
Have to side with busman and Stickboy on this one. This is clearly NEC 411, 720 and maybe 725. Also chpts 1-4.

800.1 Scope. This article covers communications circuits and equipment.

NEC 800 has nothing to do with this. The entire installation is governed by the NEC. Bell wiring is non compliant in this installation.
__________________
All responses based on the 2011 NEC.
If you live in New Jersey click here. All other states click here.
Please check with local, county and state officials as laws may vary.
Sizing motors here. Online motor calculator here. Online calculators here.
electures is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 03:59 PM   #40
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by busman

I never mentioned 600V, just 600VA. There's a big difference.

Mark
Do you even have a clue what a Volt amp is? I am sure that I do, and where ever you came up with that info has nothing to do with the orig topic at hand.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 04:03 PM   #41
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,420
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

telephone line gauge?


electures, 725 is such an obscure article, same goes with 720, they do not apply in the OP situation. And yes 800 as a whole covers communications, but it covers more than that part.

Lloks like you and Stickboy really need to look at all three sections better, due to the only one that really covers this is 411, but only for a part of the insulation of what the OP is doing.

It really is a moot point at this te, because all it is just you guys trying to play who knows more than the OP, when I am sure that I can dig out even more that can show what te OP inquired about has nothing with what you guys are theowing out there.

Case closed.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 05:14 PM   #42
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: KS
Posts: 458
Rewards Points: 286
Default

telephone line gauge?


I've tried looking through some of that stuff, but don't really want to take hours and hours trying to complicate, what really should be very simple I'm sure. I know, I know...if it is simple why am I here!! I certainly didn't want to cause WWIII!!!

My initial question regarding the telephone cord wasn't meant to be that complex. I was merely hoping to be able to use a jumper cable that typically goes from the wall box to the phone itself. I'm guessing it's in the neighborhood of 20-24gauge wire, but not really certain. I get greg's point that if you were to open up about any electronic device you'd see similar sized wire in there probably handling much more than what I'm using it for. I'll be pushing 12v & likely 5amps through this entire 16.4' strand of LED tape lights, only 2' of which will be powered via the wire in question. If I'm figureing correctly, that's only about .60amps for those 2'. I can't believe what I would like to use won't work, but since I really would rather be safe than sorry and I certainly don't want to re-solder and run wires, if not, I'll likely just go try to find some 18 gauge wire. I actually found wire on ebay that is made for this, just not sure I want to wait 2-6 weeks for it!I already have holes in the cabinets and will be using those to run the wire through....right or wrong, that's what I'm doing, it won't be burried in the wall, it'll be tucked along the back corners of the inside of my cabinets.

The other question that seems to be an issue is the power adapter. I'm likely not using a driver, but instead a 12v 5a adapter made for these lights. I had been hoping what I had would work, but I see it should be between 2&5amps and mine aren't that big, so I'll just order that. It'll plug in, inside my cabinet where I have an outlet and I'll tuck it out of sight.

Thanks for all of the help!!
Master Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 05:26 PM   #43
Electrical Contractor
 
jbfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Newnan GA
Posts: 5,964
Rewards Points: 2,324
Default

telephone line gauge?


Go to HD and get some zip cord that is used for lamps.
__________________
Yes I am a Pirate, 200 years too late. "Jimmy Buffett"
jbfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 07:04 PM   #44
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 518
Rewards Points: 298
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Do you even have a clue what a Volt amp is? I am sure that I do, and where ever you came up with that info has nothing to do with the orig topic at hand.
Yep. I'm pretty sure my Bachelors and Masters degrees from Virginia Tech in E.E. gave me a clue about VA. You are the one who misused it.

And since you are so sure, why don't you explain it to us, so we can make fun of you some more. Also, you never shot any holes in my comprehensive code explanation.

Mark
__________________
Licensed Master Electrician
Commonwealth of Virginia

Last edited by BigJim; 03-27-2013 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Removed questionable content
busman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to busman For This Useful Post:
stickboy1375 (03-26-2013)
Old 03-26-2013, 08:24 PM   #45
Lic Electrical Inspector
 
electures's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Great Police State of New Jersey
Posts: 1,761
Rewards Points: 1,102
Default

telephone line gauge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
electures, 725 is such an obscure article, same goes with 720, they do not apply in the OP situation. And yes 800 as a whole covers communications, but it covers more than that part.

Lloks like you and Stickboy really need to look at all three sections better, due to the only one that really covers this is 411, but only for a part of the insulation of what the OP is doing.

It really is a moot point at this te, because all it is just you guys trying to play who knows more than the OP, when I am sure that I can dig out even more that can show what te OP inquired about has nothing with what you guys are theowing out there.

Case closed.
Well now is your chance to prove you are right. If you are so sure, prove it!!

Advertisement

__________________
All responses based on the 2011 NEC.
If you live in New Jersey click here. All other states click here.
Please check with local, county and state officials as laws may vary.
Sizing motors here. Online motor calculator here. Online calculators here.

Last edited by electures; 03-26-2013 at 08:42 PM.
electures is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Complete blockage of main line mnp13 Plumbing 9 05-29-2012 11:51 AM
Adding a second line to existing septic line Eddietan Plumbing 3 05-10-2012 10:27 AM
Gas line for pool heater BillyDIY Plumbing 3 06-10-2011 03:29 PM
10 gauge vs 12 gauge wire for 30 amp line hsdude1992 Electrical 5 06-30-2007 02:36 PM
Telephone line static without external filters installed Unregistered Electrical 5 11-21-2004 01:38 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts