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Old 03-25-2013, 07:54 PM   #16
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telephone line gauge?


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
Guys, lets try reading a code book before we post. First off, take a look at Article 411, it clearly states we MUST use a chapter 3 wiring method for lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less.... so NO, you cannot use telephone wire.
Wheres the fun in that?

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Old 03-25-2013, 07:55 PM   #17
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Wheres the fun in that?
I was going to let Greg keep selling his pitch.... He seemed pretty confident it would work.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
Greg, are you referring to the bell wire or the phone wire ?

For the 24awg phone wire:
6 amps @12v DC for 10 ft yields a 25.67% voltage drop.
Not really knowing exactly what the specs are on your equipment, I would aim for 3% or better. That would be less than 1 amp on 24awg.
Bell wire & phone wire are the same thing. Bell wire got its name, due to it is used in low voltage wiring applications, and also because of Alexander Grahm Bell. Yep, blame it on the old telephone techs for that one.

If you go and are able to still find older telephone or Bell wiring, you will find that it is #18, with cloth covering over the rubber coating.

Next time I go over to a friend's place, I will get a picture of some old Bell wiring for the telephone jack that was on her first floor, of a turn of the century house.

The telephone company did not start using #20-22awg solid until sometime in the late 60's, then it went to #24 for a while, then back to #20, due to the wire was too easy to break. Now it is all with new builds, Cat-5e for telephone jacks.

I still have some #18 downstairs, that I got from my dad, when he gave me a box of 500' of 2 pair 18awg Telephone wire.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:58 PM   #19
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Wheres the fun in that?
Of course, someone missed the part that the telephone wiring that is #18-20awg, for the most part in old homes and can still be found in places that have not been retrofitted.

It is normal for POTS to carry -48vDC at idle, which is used for "drying". Then when it rings, the line will carry 90vAC 20hz over the -48vDC, but can be as high as 105vAC 20hz in PBX systems.

Telephone lines have been known to carry at idle, anywhere from -100-130vDC for long distances on #18-22awg line pairs. Reason for the negative voltage, is for cathodic protection. Now with Dry loop DSL/ADSL2+/VDSL2+, we no longer have that cathodic protection, so line loops go bad quicker
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:08 PM   #20
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Stickboy1375, have you realized that I have you on ignore for a reason. I think that I know more about telephone systems, and what the wire can handle, due to 1) You may want to look up what a IC is in the Navy, and that my job was working on both switching offices on board my ship, for our IVCS phone system, and ship to shore phone system.

Also grew up with my father as a ESS-4 tech with the telephone system. He also retired as a Radio tech E-7 from the Air Force. You would be amazed at what kind of voltage a telephone line will take. It is when you start applying high amperage over 1 amp to the line, then you create issues on thinner jacketed wiring.

Of course you missed the post #8 where I stated it is dependent on the jacket of the wire, that makes a difference. Besides, it would take someone that does not pay attention as to what wire to use, that keeps people busy fixing their issues.

Going back to the application that the OP is doing, they will be find on that 12vDC circuit with either #16 or #18 stranded wire.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
It will handle 120vac or 240vac, depending on the amperage, and also as I stated before, on the jacket on the wire.

Ring voltage on telephonne wire peaks over 90vac and around 1amp. Have seen as high as 115vac on telco wiring.
I can confirm this. I've gotten shocks on the frame at work (telco CO) more than once. I think it's actually more like 170v IIRC though it might drop more by the time it gets to the phone miles away.

I think it would be fine to run some LED lighting, to be safe use two wires per pole. There's usually 4 wires in a typical house phone cord.

Not sure what kind of current limitation the phone cards in the DMS have, but they do provide enough current to make sparks!

Actually I ran close to 100 amps on some 18 awg wire once (was testing some DC12v inverter setup using crocodile clips temporarily). It got very hot, but not at a point where it was going to catch on fire or melt the insulation.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:42 AM   #22
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You may want to look up what a IC is in the Navy, and that my job was working on both switching offices on board my ship, for our IVCS phone system, and ship to shore phone system.
Made it all the way to 3rd Class P.O. Wow, impressive.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Stickboy1375, have you realized that I have you on ignore for a reason. I think that I know more about telephone systems, and what the wire can handle, due to 1) You may want to look up what a IC is in the Navy, and that my job was working on both switching offices on board my ship, for our IVCS phone system, and ship to shore phone system.

Also grew up with my father as a ESS-4 tech with the telephone system. He also retired as a Radio tech E-7 from the Air Force. You would be amazed at what kind of voltage a telephone line will take. It is when you start applying high amperage over 1 amp to the line, then you create issues on thinner jacketed wiring.

Of course you missed the post #8 where I stated it is dependent on the jacket of the wire, that makes a difference. Besides, it would take someone that does not pay attention as to what wire to use, that keeps people busy fixing their issues.

Going back to the application that the OP is doing, they will be find on that 12vDC circuit with either #16 or #18 stranded wire.
You still cannot use this wiring method for the application the OP describes, so its all useless information.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
You still cannot use this wiring method for the application the OP describes, so its all useless information.

Agree 100%

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:44 AM   #25
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Made it all the way to 3rd Class P.O. Wow, impressive.

Mark
Hmm, 4 years, would be why I left as an E-4. Not too bright on that fact are you. BTW, it is not the pay grade that creates the experience, it is the time I put in for working on stuff every day. 20 hour days, 7 days a week, and there was only 20 of us on board that was a mix of EM's & IC's, in the same department, we all did the same work on the electrical side. Also went in with over 12 years of experience, by working with my father on projects at home, and hanging out with him at the office on Saturdays, where he worked at for the telephone company.

Anything else.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:47 AM   #26
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Stickboy, it has been done, and works. Ever look inside most electronic gear? Ever looked at the wiring for LED circuits, inside the tube, it is no more than #24 at most, due to not carrying hardly any amperage, and watts are very low for the circuit.

The wiring on average is no more than #20 for the DC circuits. What the OP is doing, is a DC voltage circuit, not AC. If it was AC, he could only do this if it was a 24vAC less than 1 amp circuit for #20-22, up to 5 amps for #16-18 wire.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:05 AM   #27
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Hmm, 4 years, would be why I left as an E-4. Not too bright on that fact are you. BTW, it is not the pay grade that creates the experience, it is the time I put in for working on stuff every day. 20 hour days, 7 days a week, and there was only 20 of us on board that was a mix of EM's & IC's, in the same department, we all did the same work on the electrical side. Also went in with over 12 years of experience, by working with my father on projects at home, and hanging out with him at the office on Saturdays, where he worked at for the telephone company.

Anything else.
Now if only somewhere in your IMPRESSIVE career you had bothered to learn the National Electrical Code. You're probably still using the white as a phase conductor. I've learned a bit in my 30 years with the Navy too.

BTW, are your really expecting me to buy that you worked 140 hour weeks for 4 straight years?

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:51 AM   #28
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Mark, for DC circuits, the rules are different. But I guees you missed that part, when it comes to how wireing dc circuits, you can get away with smaller gauges of wire.

Btw, I do know the rules of te NEC, but again it only applies in this case, in how you pull the wires inside the space, mount the transformer and connect the wiring in the circuit.

Besides also, we are talking about low voltage circuitry, not higher voltages like 120 or 240, so maybe you should check out the proper secrltion in the Nec about LV circuits and enlighten us as to what the NEC states about how they are handled.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:04 AM   #29
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Mark, for DC circuits, the rules are different. But I guees you missed that part, when it comes to how wireing dc circuits, you can get away with smaller gauges of wire.

Btw, I do know the rules of te NEC, but again it only applies in this case, in how you pull the wires inside the space, mount the transformer and connect the wiring in the circuit.

Besides also, we are talking about low voltage circuitry, not higher voltages like 120 or 240, so maybe you should check out the proper secrltion in the Nec about LV circuits and enlighten us as to what the NEC states about how they are handled.
Sure, Stickboy already pointed out that the correct article to start with is 411. That leaves two options: a Chapter 3 wiring method or a Article 725 method (if it's supplied by a listed Class 2 power supply). I'm not sure how you think "bell wire" fits into either of those. Certainly people (myself included) have used CL2 wire for doorbells, but that doesn't mean that all "bell wire" is class 2.

Some people would consider the old two-conductor twisted pair with no outer sheath to be "bell wire". I've sure seen it used enough on doorbells.

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Last edited by busman; 03-26-2013 at 10:17 AM. Reason: More info
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:14 AM   #30
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Mark, for DC circuits, the rules are different. But I guees you missed that part, when it comes to how wireing dc circuits, you can get away with smaller gauges of wire.
Would you care to point that out in the NEC?

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