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Old 12-20-2013, 03:36 PM   #31
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Quit citing outside sources...cite the NEC. Show us/me where in the NEC it states that all receptacles within 6' of a kitchen sink have to be GFI protected.

I already gave you the appropriate text for GFI protection in dwelling units...all you have to do is point it out.

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Old 12-20-2013, 03:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
It would fall under the SABC rule due to it is a Kitchen, so automatic 20 amp branch circuit. It is also required to be GFCI protected under current rules.
We are correcting your misinformation...again.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:38 PM   #33
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You obviously have not read anything that I have posted. Also all you want to do is argue about this. This is not the place for it. Keep it on topic, regarding the OP questions.
i'm trying to assist the op by dispelling the notion that the range is required to be gfci protected and/or required to be on a 20 amp circuit.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:40 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Quit citing outside sources...cite the NEC. Show us/me where in the NEC it states that all receptacles within 6' of a kitchen sink have to be GFI protected.

I already gave you the appropriate text for GFI protection in dwelling units...all you have to do is point it out.
The information I am citing, is in the Nec., along with the associated training materials.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:43 PM   #35
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Again, I posted the 2011 article pertaining to GFI protection in dwellings, show me where it confirms what your stance.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:43 PM   #36
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i'm trying to assist the op by dispelling the notion that the range is required to be gfci protected and/or required to be on a 20 amp circuit.
Sorry, but the range is required to be GFCI protected. It has been for 120 vAC since 1996. Again, take it up with those that wrote the code, not me on here.

If you want verification,pick up the phone and call your AHJ for your area, they will tell you what is required in the Kitchen for GFCI protection.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Sorry, but the range is required to be GFCI protected. It has been for 120 vAC since 1996. Again, take it up with those that wrote the code, not me on here.

If you want verification,pick up the phone and call your AHJ for your area, they will tell you what is required in the Kitchen for GFCI protection.


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Old 12-20-2013, 03:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
We are correcting your misinformation...again.
No, you are disagreeing with the information that is in the code, along with reputable sources that I cited.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:51 PM   #39
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Greg, most of us here are willing to debate codes as many of them leave room for interpretation, however, you are dead wrong on this.

I have asked you to point out where, in the NEC, it states that a receptacle, anywhere in a kitchen, that doesn't serve the counter top is required to be GFI protected. I even gave you the code section to study. Instead, you choose to give links to information that specifically contradicts your stance (ecm link) and an electrical contractor's website that you didn't read the entire information...

Quote:
The 1996 edition of the Code continued the addition of new areas and requirements to the ever growing list. All kitchen counter-top areas must now be served by outlets with GFCI protection, regardless of the distance to any sinks. The exception that allowed outside outlets on a kitchen circuit has been dropped.
I have more than proven that you are wrong when you state that a 120V range recept is required to be GFI protected, but I have a feeling that you will still fight your loosing battle.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:53 PM   #40
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Notice in the picture that it specifically states that the "appliance receptacle" is NOT required to be GFCI protected.

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Old 12-20-2013, 04:16 PM   #41
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OK, OP here. I took a look at my circuit mapping spreadsheet. Here are the existing circuits that apply to the kitchen.

1. 50A dedicated to electric range.

2. 20A supplying four countertop GFCI-protected receptacles. These serve microwave, fridge, blender, coffee maker, toaster oven, mixer, and food processor (obviously not all at once). Circuit also feeds two 15A duplex receptacles in my Dining Room.

3. 15A supplying Kitchen lighting (also all Master Bedroom lighting and receptacles).

4. 20A dedicated feeding one GFCI-protected countertop 15A duplex receptacle.

So, not perfect... but it's what's there. I'm guessing the above isn't quite code-compliant, especially with circuit #2 above feeding non-kitchen receptacles. It certainly doesn't give even distribution of small appliance receptacles amongst the two circuits, either. Nevertheless, it looks like circuit #4 is my best place from which to feed a new range receptacle, yes?

Last edited by JKeefe; 12-20-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Notice in the picture that it specifically states that the "appliance receptacle" is NOT required to be GFCI protected.

Did you happen to notice that is the Refrigerator, which has been required to be protected by a GFCI for a while now. Your drawing is incorrect.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Sorry, but the range is required to be GFCI protected. It has been for 120 vAC since 1996. Again, take it up with those that wrote the code, not me on here.

If you want verification,pick up the phone and call your AHJ for your area, they will tell you what is required in the Kitchen for GFCI protection.
No need for any phone calls. The receptacle behind the stove does not serve the countertop and does not need GFI protection. This area of the NEC is pretty clear, not like some others that are much more
convoluted.

Quote:
Did you happen to notice that is the Refrigerator, which has been required to be protected by a GFCI for a while now. Your drawing is incorrect.
Only refrigerators in commercial settings require GFI protection. Residential refrigerators do not require GFI protection.
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Last edited by Jim Port; 12-20-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKeefe View Post
OK, OP here. I took a look at my circuit mapping spreadsheet. Here are the existing circuits that apply to the kitchen.

1. 50A dedicated to electric range.

2. 20A supplying four countertop GFCI-protected receptacles. These serve microwave, fridge, blender, coffee maker, toaster oven, mixer, and food processor (obviously not all at once). Circuit also feeds two 15A duplex receptacles in my Dining Room.

3. 15A supplying Kitchen lighting (also all Master Bedroom lighting and receptacles).

4. Dedicated 20A feeding one GFCI-protected countertop 15A duplex receptacle.

I'm guessing this isn't quite code-compliant, especially with circuit #2 above feeding non-kitchen receptacles. Nevertheless, it looks like circuit #4 is my best place from which to feed a new range receptacle, yes?
Like stated before, pull that 50 amp, pull out the wires for the range, make it a 20 amp circuit. Only if the range is four wire now, can you use it for a sub-panel, or dual fuel feed if needed up there later on, if you decide to go with a stove that uses gas for the oven, electric for the stove top, or vice-versa.

Personally with the way that the code has changed, and how some areas are, there is no problem with using a GFCI outlet for the circuit, that is feeding the location for 120volt service for the Gas Stove.

Only two items in my Kitchen that do not have GFCI protection, is my disposal, and my fridge. That is getting changed this coming Summer, when I wrap up my Kitchen remodel, which has been going on to four years now.

Last edited by gregzoll; 12-20-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:42 PM   #45
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Did you happen to notice that is the Refrigerator, which has been required to be protected by a GFCI for a while now. Your drawing is incorrect.
That is the drawing YOU linked to. It is the fridge, but it is labeled "appliance receptacle". Like your stance on the range recept, your statement about the fridge is also wrong.

Let me be crystal clear about this...

The only receptacles in the kitchen that are required to be GFCI protected are the receptacles serving the counter tops.

That's it...nothing else.

Again, all of these statements are based on the 2011 NEC. There are significant changes in the 2014, but being at it is currently December of 2013, nobody should be on the 2014 yet.

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