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Old 05-01-2013, 10:02 PM   #61
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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The light is usually a different symbol on a line diagram. The symbol on your pic is a center mark. It threw me off
Gotcha...

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Old 05-01-2013, 10:16 PM   #62
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


That's a really creative way to wire a 3-way. It gives you a full hot and neutral at the far end switch, whereas normally you only have two travelers and a neutral there if you do it by 14-3 from switch to switch and 14-2 to the light. I wouldn't do it tho cuz altho the light alone might not be a high current, anything you attach downstream would add more current in that big loop. Isn't that bad or is inducing a magnetic field not a concern? There was another thread recently about the hot not following the neutral... I never like that. It seems messy. Ingenious tho how the two 3-ways work in that map.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:24 PM   #63
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That's a really creative way to wire a 3-way. It gives you a full hot and neutral at the far end switch, whereas normally you only have two travelers and a neutral there if you do it by 14-3 from switch to switch and 14-2 to the light. I wouldn't do it tho cuz altho the light alone might not be a high current, anything you attach downstream would add more current in that big loop. Isn't that bad or is inducing a magnetic field not a concern? There was another thread recently about the hot not following the neutral... I never like that. It seems messy. Ingenious tho how the two 3-ways work in that map.
It will create EMF's, but im sure that's the least of our worries in todays world... lol...
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:03 PM   #64
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Dude, i actually posted where it is allowed.... accept that... phew....
300.3 (B) states that all conductors of the same circuit including ground shall be contained within the same raceway etc... unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3 (B)(1) through (B)(4).

300.3 (B)(3) states
"Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, WHERE RUN IN DIFFERENT RACEWAYS, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords shall comply with the provisions of 300.20 (B) "
That means that if the romex is run in another raceway ( ie. Cable tray) you can go on to 300.20 (B) which tells you how to cut down on the inductive effects of the wire by slotting the metal raceway.

Our issue is contained in 300.3 (B) because 300.3(B)(3) pertains only to nonmetallic sheathed cable run inside other raceways.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #65
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


Therefore the 3way and 4 way wiring you suggested is not to code. Along with your suggested modification to the 2 switch loops.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:14 AM   #66
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300.3 (B) states that all conductors of the same circuit including ground shall be contained within the same raceway etc... unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3 (B)(1) through (B)(4).

300.3 (B)(3) states
"Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, WHERE RUN IN DIFFERENT RACEWAYS, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords shall comply with the provisions of 300.20 (B) "
That means that if the romex is run in another raceway ( ie. Cable tray) you can go on to 300.20 (B) which tells you how to cut down on the inductive effects of the wire by slotting the metal raceway.

Our issue is contained in 300.3 (B) because 300.3(B)(3) pertains only to nonmetallic sheathed cable run inside other raceways.
You can't read it the way you want it to mean... those commas after every example are there for a reason...
'WHERE RUN IN DIFFERENT RACEWAYS is just an example, just like cables, cords, gutters, etc....

Try reading it now, and see if you still agree with your previous statement.
300.3 (B)(3) states
"Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, cords, OR raceways shall comply with the provisions of 300.20 (B) "

Last edited by stickboy1375; 05-02-2013 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:15 AM   #67
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Therefore the 3way and 4 way wiring you suggested is not to code. Along with your suggested modification to the 2 switch loops.
Since you read the section wrong, I am still in the right.

Last edited by stickboy1375; 05-02-2013 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:01 PM   #68
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Wow. Can't believe a little question has created this much discussion.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:28 PM   #69
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Wow. Can't believe a little question has created this much discussion.
It shouldn't have, sometimes its hard to get over what you think you know. I've fallen victim to this as well.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:34 AM   #70
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It shouldn't have, sometimes its hard to get over what you think you know. I've fallen victim to this as well.
I dont stand down from my point of view and my interpretation i just realize there is no moving forward with this. When it comes down to it, its how we interpret the code. You and I can have our separate views, we're entitled to them. Although I have had the luxury of having had a code panel member side with my interpretation.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:58 AM   #71
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I don't mind a code debate, but you have yet to post a code section that does not allow the installation, 300.3(B)(3) allows the installation, I really cant grasp how you can read that section and say it isn't allowed?

Last edited by stickboy1375; 05-04-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:16 AM   #72
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I don't mind a code debate, but you have yet to post a code section that does not allow the installation,
300.3 (B) is my proof for my point. I have double checked this with a code making panel member and he agrees with my interpretation.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:17 AM   #73
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300.3 (B) is my proof for my point. I have double checked this with a code making panel member and he agrees with my interpretation.
??? Want to share the light on how its a violation? READ THE VERY LAST SENTENCE OF 300.3 (B)
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:32 AM   #74
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I wouldn't do it tho cuz altho the light alone might not be a high current, anything you attach downstream would add more current in that big loop. Isn't that bad or is inducing a magnetic field not a concern?
With everything being non-ferrous, there is nothing to heat up by the inductive heating and thus poses no issues of damaging the insulation. This is the whole point of everything being plastic and the scenario being allowed by the NEC, you still have the issues of EMF's, but that is no concern of the NEC.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:32 AM   #75
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I really cant grasp how you can read that section and say it isn't allowed?
My interpretation as follows

300.3 (B) states that all conductors have to stay in the raceway for the same circuit. Unless otherwise permitted by 300.3 (B)(1) through (B)(4).

300.3 (B)(3)(which you say is your winning answer) says conductors in nonmetallic or non magnetic sheath where run in the raceways stated shall comply with 300.20 (B)
So it doesnt give the answer it gives you yet another article to verify.

300.20 (B) talks about *single conductors* passing through metal with magnetic properties and ways to cut down on the inductive effect.

So in my interpretation none of the latter articles apply.

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