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Old 05-01-2013, 08:28 PM   #31
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


Source
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/wiring-methods

Same circuit grouping

Conductors of the same circuit must be grouped in the same raceway or cable to help reduce the inductive reactance of the conductors. A literal reading of previous Code editions didnít address the use of single-conductor cables, such as many USE cables, in parallel installations. The NEC now recognizes this practice while giving guidance on how to install these cables. The issues of inductive reactance are addressed by requiring these single-conductor cables to be installed within close proximity of each other [300.5(I)].

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Old 05-01-2013, 08:35 PM   #32
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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I told you i'd get back to you and i did! lol

Article 300.5(I) Conductors of the same circuit
All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be installed in the same raceway or cable or shall be installed in close proximity in the same trench.

I understand this article is for Underground installations, but it still makes the same point. You need to address the inductive reactance being created by making sure the hot and neutral, or hot and return(sw loop) are in the same raceway or are in close proximity, which those two lights are not in close proximity except at the switch box.
No, its not the same thing... sorry. try again... you can't just throw any code section out that you want... I already posted ALL the code sections that allow the installation, go back and read them.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:38 PM   #33
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Originally Posted by SGC622 View Post
Source
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/wiring-methods

Same circuit grouping

Conductors of the same circuit must be grouped in the same raceway or cable to help reduce the inductive reactance of the conductors. A literal reading of previous Code editions didnít address the use of single-conductor cables, such as many USE cables, in parallel installations. The NEC now recognizes this practice while giving guidance on how to install these cables. The issues of inductive reactance are addressed by requiring these single-conductor cables to be installed within close proximity of each other [300.5(I)].
We are NOT talking about underground installations.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:46 PM   #34
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Originally Posted by SGC622 View Post
I told you i'd get back to you and i did! lol

Article 300.5(I) Conductors of the same circuit
All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be installed in the same raceway or cable or shall be installed in close proximity in the same trench.

I understand this article is for Underground installations, but it still makes the same point. You need to address the inductive reactance being created by making sure the hot and neutral, or hot and return(sw loop) are in the same raceway or are in close proximity, which those two lights are not in close proximity except at the switch box.
You realize you can use xx-2 conductor for three way and four way switches, right?
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:56 PM   #35
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Any issues with this setup as far as 300.3(B) is concerned? (This is of course assuming all the wiring is done with non- ferrous materials.)


are you saying that this is an exceptable and working method to install xx-2 with 3ways and 4ways?

(btw i need to clarify this, i am in no way engaging you because of any vendetta, its stricktly my debating our differences in opinion)
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:56 PM   #36
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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You realize you can use xx-2 conductor for three way and four way switches, right?
Stick...you can't keep throwing that out as an example. 404.2(A) has a specific exception to 300.3(B).

I am still looking into the articles you are citing to allow this, but your assertion of running a 2 wire for travelers doesn't prove your point because of the exception in 404.2 (A).
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:15 PM   #37
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Stick...you can't keep throwing that out as an example. 404.2(A) has a specific exception to 300.3(B).

I am still looking into the articles you are citing to allow this, but your assertion of running a 2 wire for travelers doesn't prove your point because of the exception in 404.2 (A).
K_buz, when you use xx-2 wire for travelers, they are not a switch loop... current is only going to be on one of the travelers, not both.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:19 PM   #38
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K_buz, when you use xx-2 wire for travelers, they are not a switch loop...
I have a different opinion. Those conductors are strictly for switching purposes, therefore its a switch loop.

What would you call them if not a switch loop?
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:22 PM   #39
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I have a different opinion. Those conductors are strictly for switching purposes, therefore its a switch loop.

What would you call them if not a switch loop?
A current carrying conductor, but its not a switch loop... you dont have a loop, you have two conductors that alternate carrying current.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:29 PM   #40
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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K_buz, when you use xx-2 wire for travelers, they are not a switch loop... current is only going to be on one of the travelers, not both.
and thats exactly whats wrong with it and why the provision to make switch loops acceptable are in place, so that there is always current flowing in the opposite direction to cancel out inductive reactance.

Also, you havent answered, is that diagram i assume you drew what you believe to be a functioning three way circuit?

Last edited by SGC622; 05-01-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:30 PM   #41
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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are you saying that this is an exceptable and working method to install xx-2 with 3ways and 4ways?

(btw i need to clarify this, i am in no way engaging you because of any vendetta, its stricktly my debating our differences in opinion)
This is acceptable, except for a small paralleling violation...
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:31 PM   #42
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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and thats exactly whats wrong with it and why the provision to make switch loops acceptable are in place, so that there is always current flowing in the opposite direction to cancel out inductive reactance.
Did you not read 300.3(B)(3)???
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:32 PM   #43
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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and thats exactly whats wrong with it and why the provision to make switch loops acceptable are in place, so that there is always current flowing in the opposite direction to cancel out inductive reactance.

Also, you havent answered, is that diagram i assume you drew what you believe to be a functioning three way circuit?
There is no issue with nonferrous wiring materials... EMFs on the other hand.....
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:33 PM   #44
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Switch Legs - Need Neutral, Can I....?


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Also, you havent answered, is that diagram i assume you drew what you believe to be a functioning three way circuit?
I didn't draw it, but it works just fine.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #45
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vendetta, its stricktly my debating our differences in opinion)
I would hope that we can have a healthy debate. And its okay if you are wrong, too.

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