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Old 02-01-2009, 11:43 PM   #1
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Switch done over


I got rid of enough wood to get a deeper box installed. Left 6" of slack, used just one ground screw, put in the correct ground pig tails, left more sheath on the romex cable in the box.... Did I miss anything?

Jamie

Switch done over-img_5263.jpg

Switch done over-img_5266.jpg

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Old 02-01-2009, 11:52 PM   #2
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Switch done over


Looks good to me, definitely better than the last way it was done. How much harder was it to do it this way than the other way you had it done?

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Old 02-01-2009, 11:57 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
Looks good to me, definitely better than the last way it was done. How much harder was it to do it this way than the other way you had it done?
The wiring in the box wasn't any harder to do this way, it was the risk of damage to the original wood work that was the concern with cutting away the stuff in the wall(to make room for this deeper box). I didn't care at all about re-doing the wiring in the box, I was just scared I was going to damage that wood wall, that would likely be impossible to repair in a way that would match the rest of the wood work.

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Old 02-02-2009, 03:58 AM   #4
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Switch done over


Do you realize that the grounding pigtail was not required here?

You don't have to change anything at this point -- that tail is purely optional when the switch is mounted in a grounded metal box.
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:08 AM   #5
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Switch done over


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Do you realize that the grounding pigtail was not required here?

You don't have to change anything at this point -- that tail is purely optional when the switch is mounted in a grounded metal box.
You're saying that the switch can be "self grounding" to the metallic box, which is grounded?
I thought all devices (switches as well as receptacles) were required to have the pigtail ground wire connected to their green screw.

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Old 02-02-2009, 07:13 AM   #6
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Switch done over


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Do you realize that the grounding pigtail was not required here?

You don't have to change anything at this point -- that tail is purely optional when the switch is mounted in a grounded metal box.

If the box is grounded than no ground wire needs to be connected to the switch, right? Then whats the point of self grounding switches?
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:26 AM   #7
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Actually I believe the switch or outlet must have the self grounding tab under the mounting screw in order to qualify as a self grounding device. This is usually just a small brass tab on one end of the device or the other that touches the mounting screw for the device. When a self grounded device is installed in a properly grounded metal box, then no additional ground wire is required to be attached to the device.



Notice the brass tab at the top of the switch mounting yoke? Some devices have the grounding tab on both ends to ensure a solid ground connection between the metal box and the device. To check out this switch in detail: http://www.buylevitoninstead.com/Pass-Seymour-20AC2.htm
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:05 AM   #8
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Switch done over


Switches mounted in plastic boxes are required to have a ground pigtail to the device. Switches mounted in metal boxes are not required to have a pigtail to the device because the box is grounded. I often encounter electricians and DIYers that install switches without ground terminals in plastic boxes and contend that they only have to ground them if the device has a green screw...Not so.

2002 NEC 404.9(b)...Not sure of the section in the '05 or '08

Looks good Jamie. The ground pigtail to the device certainly won't hurt anything.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:33 AM   #9
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Switch done over


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If the box is grounded than no ground wire needs to be connected to the switch, right? Then whats the point of self grounding switches?
To help with the grounding connection if you want to leave the fiber washers on the mounting screws. It is usually a good idea for both receptacles and switches to remove at least one of these washers so that you get good metal to metal contact with switch yoke along with the threads of the screws.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:14 PM   #10
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I often encounter electricians and DIYers that install switches without ground terminals in plastic boxes and contend that they only have to ground them if the device has a green screw...Not so.

2002 NEC 404.9(b)...Not sure of the section in the '05 or '08
What is the "Code Approved" method to ground a switch that does not have a green ground screw on the switch and is installed in a plastic box? I've been told that looping a ground wire under one of the mounting screws is not the proper way to ground the switch in this case, so what is the approved method?

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To help with the grounding connection if you want to leave the fiber washers on the mounting screws. It is usually a good idea for both receptacles and switches to remove at least one of these washers so that you get good metal to metal contact with switch yoke along with the threads of the screws.
I am fairly positive the requirement is the switch or outlet needs to have the self-grounding tab in order to not require the ground pigtail. I am pretty sure this has been brought up by Speedy Petey in the past on this forum. I think it has to do with if the outlet or switch does not make full contact with the box that it could be a little loose or the box may be set too far back in the wall (or just enough that it doesn't meet the switch or outlet yoke). The problem being that this connection relies on the pressure of the screw holding the outlet to the box, where as with the grounding tab it has a solid connection from the yoke to the screw, and so long as the screw is screwed at least part way into the metal box, that fulfills the grounding requirement.

I think the basis for this arguement is similar in nature to the 4" J-box covers for outlets and switches, in order to use these covers with out a ground pigtail the corners where the cover meets the box must be the kind that are flattened out; not the kind that meet the box with a thin edge of metal.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:12 PM   #11
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Switch done over


Quote:
I am fairly positive the requirement is the switch or outlet needs to have the self-grounding tab in order to not require the ground pigtail. I am pretty sure this has been brought up by Speedy Petey in the past on this forum.
Its been discussed several times..... there are three ways to effectively ground switch yokes. One is to have direct metal to metal contact between the switch metal yoke and the metal box. To do this you need to remove at least one fiber washer just like is stated in 250.146(B) for receptacles where it talks about surface mounted boxes and grounding receptacles. Switches cannot have the metal to metal contact with the fiber washers on the mounting screws. Second is to use a self grounding switch yoke where you are not required to have metal to metal contact with the yoke and metal box but along with the self grounding clip and the mounting screws it is sufficient for grounding purposes. See 404.9(B). The code does not specifically address self grounding snap switches as it does receptacles in 250.146(B). Though I think the intent is the same. Third just connect a pigtail to the switch green grounding screw. In this case I see no reason to do that since Jamie can easily obtain metal to metal contact in that flush mounted box as kbsparky has stated earlier. The use of a self grounding switch is not necessary nor is the pigtail. But as KCtermite has stated it certainly cannot hurt anything.
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
What is the "Code Approved" method to ground a switch that does not have a green ground screw on the switch and is installed in a plastic box? I've been told that looping a ground wire under one of the mounting screws is not the proper way to ground the switch in this case, so what is the approved method?
There isn't one unless it is a replacement of an existing ungrounded switch and there is no available means of grounding (no wire)(per the exception to 404.9{b} in the NEC). Whereas looping a pigtail under the mounting screws might be effective in the real world, it is not a code-legal application and is not conformant with the product's listing. A switch that does not have an integral grounding terminal should not be installed in a plastic box.
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:11 PM   #13
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From the '02 NEC...
404.9(b) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimming and similar control switches, shall be effectively grounded and shall provide a means to ground metal faceplates, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered effectively grounded if either of the following conditions is met.
(1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or to a nonmetallic box with an integral means for grounding devices.
(2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bonding jumper is connected to an equipment grounding termination fo the snap switch.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:41 AM   #14
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Switch done over


And the wording in the `05 Code is exactly the same.

The wording in the `08 Code contains a few more details about connection of switches to equipment grounding conductors however, the gist of the requirements is basically the same as being discussed here.

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