Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-07-2013, 09:23 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Share |
Default

Subpanel or not


Currently have service entrance at the SE corner of the basement running about 10' from meter to 100 amp panel in basement. Planning to replace with 200 amp with meter/main outside running to 200 amp sub-panel in basement (same 10').

Kitchen and AC are in the NW corner, and my detached garage is about 30' North by Northwest of the NW corner of the house. So I will have 10 runs for two kitchen circuits, electric range, rangehood, diswhasher, disposal, microwave, fridge, A/C, and garage subpanel I will have 10 runs from the panel to this one relatively small area at the opposite corner of the house where most of the amps in the house will be pulled (sans the dryer which is at the NE corner).

I need to run the calculatoins for load and cost of wire, but it seems my options would be:

1. Keep 200 amp panel where near the service and run individual runs to the NW corner (basically the current arrangement)

2. Keep 200 amp panel where it is near the service and run a 65' feeder to the subpanel in the NW corner (have not yet done the calcs but I'm guessing it would be a 100 amp panel)

3. Place the 200 amp panel in the NW corner with a 75' feeder from the meter/main disconnect. This is the most radical departure from what I have now, but aside from the possible cost difrerence of the wire makes the most sense to me given that I am replacing all circuits in the house anyway. But are there any safety concerns for a 75' service feed through the basement? Wouldn't seem to be given I will have an OCPD right at the meter.

I would love to hear what the pros here have to say on this. I am very close to starting this rewire project. Talked to inspector and searched high and low to find an electrician to look over my plans. This was way difficult as I live in a small town, but by accident found out my daughter's boyfriend has a friend who is a 10 year journeyman from a family of electricians and he works for a major company. He will be here on Tuesday. I'm just not sure how much residential experience he has, or experience with old home rewires. But I am just estatic to have a pro physically look at my setup and look over my plans.

dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 10:53 AM   #2
MarginallyQualified
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Winston-Salem NC
Posts: 3,652
Default

Subpanel or not


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
I will have 10 runs (of WHAT LENGTH?) from the panel to this one relatively small area
The main panel is installed rather close to where the power comes in at/through the meter. There is rarely any practical way to get around this without a LOT of bother and expense.

Sometimes sub panels needed and sometimes they are just convenient. Either is a good enough reason to use them.

TarheelTerp is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TarheelTerp For This Useful Post:
dgfit (07-07-2013)
Old 07-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Runs are roughly same as run to subpanel - 65 feet.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #4
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Default

Subpanel or not


Just give you a head up it will be little long but I will try to answer your question much as possible and it will be in Bleu which it is my reply to your multi questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
Currently have service entrance at the SE corner of the basement running about 10' from meter to 100 amp panel in basement. Planning to replace with 200 amp with meter/main outside running to 200 amp sub-panel in basement (same 10').

If you going to use the meter/main combo you will have to use the SER instead of SE cable due you will have to keep the netural et ground seperated and also you will end up buy a ground bussbar due majorty of the main breaker panels (they can converted to subpanel pretty easy due the main breaker in " subpanel " format is your local main disconect the meter/breaker combo is your principal (main) point.

Also with the meter/main there is no limit for the SER to run anywhere inside the house so you will have freedom chose where you want to put that large subpanel is but only negtive part is the cost of the cable you may end up get alum SER cable which it pretty common to find in most big box store the excat cost that will really varies from store to store and location

Try to get 40 or 42 space panel if possible somecase belive or not it cheaper just grab 200 amp panel with main breaker than main lug aka subpanel and add ground bussbars ( the 200 amp main panels useally pretty much in stock in most big box store but 200 amp main lugs it more like spotty some will have it and some don't unless speical order from them.


Kitchen and AC are in the NW corner, and my detached garage is about 30' North by Northwest of the NW corner of the house. So I will have 10 runs for two kitchen circuits, electric range, rangehood, diswhasher, disposal, microwave, fridge, A/C, and garage subpanel I will have 10 runs from the panel to this one relatively small area at the opposite corner of the house where most of the amps in the house will be pulled (sans the dryer which is at the NE corner).

2 - 20 amp for countertop with GFCI receptale for sure no question asked.

A single 50 amp circuit for your range just be aware once you pull new circuit for the range it have to be in 4 conductor format aka two hots et netural et ground.

The rangehood I will suggest that it have to be on it own circuit due in the future you may end up have microhood type.

The dishwasher and garbage disopal can be on the same circuit but a major gotcha is the amp rating of both unit can not be over 50% either 7.5 amps on 15 amp circuit or 10 amps on 20 amp circuit otherwise wire them on it own circuit which I rather do that due more and more dishwasher and garbage dispoal unit get more powerfull and it will not take much cross that line quick. ( check with your codes for local disconnet espcally with dishwasher If need more info let me know I or other members in here will fill you in on that )

Fridge well., it can be shared on SABC ( small appalice branch circuit ) or it have to be on deicaited circuit so it will go either way.

For the A/C is this a central air unit? if so find the outdoor unit and give us the max OCPD size and running amps it should be on the nameplate on outdoor unit.

As far you are aware that the furance it have to be on it own circut typically 15 amp circuit unless that furnce do call for diffent then follow that nameplate info.

Garage subpanel the conductor size will depending on what ya plan to do in the garage so let me know what ya got in your mind but most case if noting serious going on typically 40 or 50 amp size will do it unless something major doing like welding or other stuff like woodworking etc then it will change on sizewise requirement ( I will suggest that run this circuit entrireally in Conduit so in case you have to upgrade it will be easy and not to interferince other items and keep it 1.5 inch conduit size due it will handle larger conductor without issue


I need to run the calculatoins for load and cost of wire, but it seems my options would be:

1. Keep 200 amp panel where near the service and run individual runs to the NW corner (basically the current arrangement)

That useally the most common item. most 15 or 20 amp branch circuit useally not a issue if done right but few hevey circuit that something you may want to check it closer but if done right that is not a issue at all.

2. Keep 200 amp panel where it is near the service and run a 65' feeder to the subpanel in the NW corner (have not yet done the calcs but I'm guessing it would be a 100 amp panel)

That will work and the numbers of conductors can drop a little due you can keep it closer to the subpanel so you will only need #2 alum with 90 amp breaker to handle this one and that useally more than engough to handle anything beside the garage subpanel that will depending on if light load you can use that in smaller subpanel as you want in that corner but as I mention if very large load then just run the garage subpanel circuit directally to the 200 amp subpanel.

3. Place the 200 amp panel in the NW corner with a 75' feeder from the meter/main disconnect. This is the most radical departure from what I have now, but aside from the possible cost difrerence of the wire makes the most sense to me given that I am replacing all circuits in the house anyway. But are there any safety concerns for a 75' service feed through the basement? Wouldn't seem to be given I will have an OCPD right at the meter.

As long you have meter/main the downstream main circuit it can go anywhere due you have OCPD there so baically it kinda unlimited choice where you want to put it. But as I menton above use the SER cable or run in the conduit with 4 conductors and use the Alum conductors they are cheaper on very large size compared to the copper conductors and if done right useally not a issue at all

I would love to hear what the pros here have to say on this. I am very close to starting this rewire project. Talked to inspector and searched high and low to find an electrician to look over my plans. This was way difficult as I live in a small town, but by accident found out my daughter's boyfriend has a friend who is a 10 year journeyman from a family of electricians and he works for a major company. He will be here on Tuesday. I'm just not sure how much residential experience he has, or experience with old home rewires. But I am just estatic to have a pro physically look at my setup and look over my plans.
Before I forget anything else just remember to sink two ground rods at the main meter location but check with your POCO requirement for type of meter main if you do go that route

How big the house it is ? the reason why I did not do the caluation at the moment due the size of the house I do not know due I do not have internet magic ball to see what ya got there.

But go with 200 amp service and that is pretty much normal for North Americian side.

Bon Chance.

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 08:35 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Thank you FE!! I very much appreciate the time and attention. The house is a little more than 3000 sqft livable space. It is an outdoor central A/C unit that has had the nameplate painted over. The OCPD is 40 amp currently run with 6/3 aluminum. I am going to try to get the paint off and/or open the unit to get the rating. Yes, gas furnace will be on dedicated 20 amp circuit.

My plans are to go with 200 amp service with Eaton meter/main that is on poco's approved list, 42 space CH panel, 12 space CH panel in attic. We discussed on another thread regarding usage of laundry chute. Suspect I won't go that route as I found another way to run the wire.

I'm up to speed on all the grounding and bonding requirments - #6 cu to two ground rods, #4 cu to water pipe, jumped past meter. Also planning to go ahead and bond the cold, hot, and gas pipes (even though not technically necessary). Seaparate neutrals and EGC everywhere past meter/main. Also up to speed on all the required circuits, outlet spacing, box fill and voltage drop (I know a lot people say don't worry about voltage drop, but I choose to with a couple of circuits expected to be over 200 feet). Using spreadsheet from Mike Holt website, I did load calcs which put me at about 130 (with estimates for the A/C). But Iím going to 200 anyway.

I'm going with dedicated circuits for fridge, disposal and diswasher. Seems silly not to if I am doing all the rest of the work anyway. The only circuit that will have both lights and plugs will be 20 amp circuit feeding half bath only.

I did wake up in the middle of the night with a thought that makes me decide not to put any panel in the NW corner Ė itís right under the kitchen and also has other plumbing running on the other side of the basement support wall. Given an option, I would rather not have a panel under water sources. So I think I will stick to having the panel where it is now and run individual circuits.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 11:26 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Well I spent some time with an electrician today going over all my plans. I was pleased to find that he felt I am on the right track with everything and everything made sense to him. He also walked through the conduit installation for the service entrance so that I now have confidence with that. I also showed him a couple of circuits I installed and asked him to critique my work. He said it looked as good or better than most any electrician's work he has seen. Made me feel great! He gave me his number should I have any questions.

So I should have budget ready by the first of the month and will be pulling my permit.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 11:50 PM   #7
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Default

Subpanel or not


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
Well I spent some time with an electrician today going over all my plans. I was pleased to find that he felt I am on the right track with everything and everything made sense to him. He also walked through the conduit installation for the service entrance so that I now have confidence with that. I also showed him a couple of circuits I installed and asked him to critique my work. He said it looked as good or better than most any electrician's work he has seen. Made me feel great! He gave me his number should I have any questions.

So I should have budget ready by the first of the month and will be pulling my permit.
I am glad that the electrician whom they did take a look at your place and feel saifaied ( SP ) with your plans.

However I did came up with my load demand caluations The bare bone size is 150 amp service but IMO that is too close to my confortable level due there is not much margin of addtional loads and what more the 150'ers useally cost more than common 200 amp services due the 150 amp main breaker is not excatally super common that one reason and the other reason is that in case you add something in future you will have some reserve room for it.

As long you keep the house design to basic which it meet the NEC code I know 200 amp service will do it but if you have alot of bell et whistle and some pretty good load items then I will suggest to bump up to class 320 service aka 400 amp resdentail service and use duex 200 amp panels which it is very common and I have done this often even over here in France we do have some home with pretty large service.

And as long you are not useing the whole house tankless electrique water heater ya fine on this size but if you decided to go that route then you will have no choice but bump up which it will cost more than just a common 200 amp service will be.

Ya going have overhead or lateral ( underground ) uility service ? most case useally underground cost more but it worth it ( check with your POCO for limiations and cost for lateral runs )

Are you plan to have a stand by ( ou protable ) generator hook up sometime in future or not ?

The more question you answer the better the situation you can be prepared for the upgrading service.

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to frenchelectrican For This Useful Post:
dgfit (07-10-2013)
Old 07-10-2013, 07:22 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Thanks - tarheel was pretty adamant that I get an electrician to put eyes on my situation, and I had to agree it was a good idea. To be honest, my goal at my age of 50 is to extend the life of this 87 year old house into the future and I have always wanted to tackle a project like this. I am enamored with the idea of so many families having lived in this house and I want it to continue beyond me. So I have been learning and preparing the best I can. I feel I have gained a pretty good working knowledge of all aspects of my specific project, but I know I don't have the hands on experience. So I was very happy to have someone with experience put eyes on the situation. FE, if you ever find yourself in NE Ohio, please do stop by!! We will show you all of our beautiful, small town and give you the king's treatment

I came up with 150 amps too as the bare minimum and appreciate knowing some of the other items I should think about. I expect to stick with the gas hot water heater. I also thought of an electric car charger. I think one advantage of going with the meter/main disconnect is the ability to run additional circuits / panels without having to redo the main house wiring. In the worst case, if future needs require, the meter/main and up to the service drop might have to be upgraded but that is pretty minimal cost I think in the whole scheme and doesn't justify the additional cost to me now. So I am thinking of going to 200 amps, but am welcome to additional things to think about.

I am sticking with the existing overhead service drop. To go undergound, I would have to dig through roots of some very old and beautiful trees, across sidewalks and streets. I don't even want to think about what the cost would be to go underground or the damage it would do.

The generator though is a different topic for me. I need to spend a bit more time thinking about that and understand what it would mean to add one afterwards.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 07:37 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Well wouldn't you know it. A matter of days from pulling my permit and we discovered a pipe in the upstairs bath with a hole the size of a quarter letting water run through the light fixture below. And the pipe is encased in leveling concrete so we have to tear up the floor. And since we are doing that we are gutting the entire bath and replacing the cast iron stack at the same time. We had planned this anyway but just not this soon. The good news as it relates to my rewiring project is that this is the same bath with that funky laundry chute and the chute runs beside the stack. So now I will have the wall open from the basement all the way up to the attic. So now I can easily prepare for wiring and hvac. So I will be posting on the remodeling forum for a bit.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #10
Licensed electrician
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,400
Default

Subpanel or not


Hopefully that is the only setback you will have. Sounds like you have a good handle on your project.
__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.
Jim Port is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jim Port For This Useful Post:
dgfit (07-12-2013)
Old 07-12-2013, 11:35 PM   #11
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Default

Subpanel or not


At least you did hit a minor speed bump which I used the term pretty " soft " but glad that you found one issue allready so it was a perfect timming to deal with it before it will get worst.

Take your time and do not go super rush without getting any mistakes there and if you have more question just holler one of us will reply to you whatever oddball question to throw at us.

Bon Chance with it.

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to frenchelectrican For This Useful Post:
dgfit (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 06:00 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


Thanks everyone - I start demo on the bathroom today. Will be interesting to see the K&T wiring and other surprises in the walls
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dgfit For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (07-13-2013)
Old 11-23-2013, 07:35 PM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 284
Default

Subpanel or not


So I now have my electrical and plumbing permits, replaced all galvanized/copper mess with pex homerun system and have demoed the upstairs bath and opened the wall between the basement and the bathroom. So now I can remove the laundry chute entirely.

Also ran gas line and installed new 120 circuit for new gas stove with double oven - in time for thanksgiving.

After talking with plumbing and electrical inspectors - the plan is to complete the wiring and plumbing - do plumbing inspection and roughin electrical. That will then let me close the walls up and complete the bath.

The electrical inspector will let me wire to the old panel for now and then when the weather gets warmer I will replace the service and swap out the panel and complete the service inspection and final at the same time.

So now I am cutting holes for outlets and switches, opening holes to pull wires and found paths for the hallway and smoke detectors. Learned a few things - finding studs in plaster and lath is a pain and an inexact science. No one method works for all instances. Also found for cutting holes for boxes - an oscillating tool with diamond grout blade is perfect for plaster and a carbide blade is great for the lath. The higher cost blades are well worth the cost.

Now with the walls open and having fished a few wires I can see where I don't need any sub-panels - which I know some here tried to tell me . It's the difference between what looks good on paper vs what becomes apparent with experience.

I am encountering lots if surprises in the walls - tonight I cut a hole for a box and found these two thin wires - the had obviously run to the upstairs but were just hanging loose such that I pulled them out. Anyone have any idea what they would be for? Phone maybe?



Subpanel or not-image-3368895704.jpg

dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shed subpanel BrandonD Electrical 21 10-14-2012 12:06 PM
Several Questions...leading to Garage Subpanel willstutely Electrical 5 01-03-2012 01:38 PM
Subpanel Right Below Main dcapone Electrical 6 01-02-2012 04:46 PM
Problems with Square D Subpanel bltglt507 Electrical 16 12-04-2009 08:44 PM
A few slightly different questions on subpanel wiring. Chris Dopp Electrical 8 06-26-2009 09:45 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.