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Old 05-02-2011, 05:01 PM   #16
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Subpanel conductors


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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Conductors in a cable can be re-identified even if smaller than #6.

A three wire feeder was allowed before, but it did not allow the bare ground as a neutral.
so, he could have a 240 volt panel or a 120 volt panel but not a 120/240 volt panel. Is that what you're trying to say Jim?

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Old 05-02-2011, 06:00 PM   #17
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If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. If you wouldn't put your name on it, it ain't done right!
Well, "it ain't done right". It wasn't done right for 15 years ago. What you need to do to "fix" it depends on what you want the outcome to be. Most of the advice you have been getting has been not just how to make it work, but how to make it safe and comply to NEC code. If it were mine, or if I was doing it for you, I would first determine what the end result is to be. Then "fix" it accordingly.

In any case it should be corrected to at least the code requirements at the time it was installed.
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:25 PM   #18
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davido,

Your point?
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:27 PM   #19
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Cable assembly

The white conductor within a cable can be used for the ungrounded conductor if permanently reidentified at each location where the conductor is visible to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor. Identification must encircle the insulation and must be a color other than white, gray, or green
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:31 PM   #20
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davido,

Your point?
Your sig says it all.
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:17 PM   #21
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Subpanel conductors


so, downunder,

what is the wire size feeding this? what size breaker do you have it on in the panel in the house?
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:35 PM   #22
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How does that wire get there...is it buried, in conduit....above ground? There may be a way to fix things if we know how they are done
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:12 PM   #23
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A. My sig is my sig. My standards may or may not be those of a third party, so since I didn't do the install, I don't see what one has to do with the other at all.
B. Didn't say I wanted to "fix it" or "make it work." It already works- has for years.
C. I haven't asked for how to fix it to a specific end result.
D. And it seems silly to me to go to the trouble to make a repair to standards which are 15 years old and outdated. Or, just plain stupid.

My thread, I can flame if I want to.

To those who have asked constructive questions:

The cable is buried in pvc conduit. Presuming that my meager skill with a fishtape would suffice, I might could pull a neutral conductor through the several 90's.

Right now, I don't know what the exact wire gauge is. Nothing is on the length that is in the panel and I can't see the outside jacket of the cable but I would guess maybe a 6 stranded.

The house panel has a two pole 30 amp.


Quote:
I'm just not sure this is exactly how it should be and hoped the wealth of knowledge here could throw something in.
Or, put another way, I know a little more than I did years ago. In MY OPINION it looks like things could have been done differently and so I have solicited the wisdom of those on this site who have MUCH more experience and knowledge than I for whatever suggestions might be made that could reasonably make this safer and perhaps more functional. Since I have had no problem with circuit breakers tripping, etc. for this many years I have had no reason to suspect a problem. Now that I am aware of this, it seems prudent to at least investigate some remedial action.
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Last edited by downunder; 05-03-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:14 PM   #24
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Subpanel conductors


This is wrong on so many levels, first off it looks like your feeding this with a 6/2. using the white wire as b phase and then running the ground to an isolated ground bar which is being used for a neutral too! You need to run a 6/3, put black and red on the A and B phases, put the neutral on the isolated ground bar, then install a new ground bar that is bonded to the can only and remained isolated from the neutral and land the ground wire from the 6/3 to that bar. sharing a neutral and a ground on a sub panel is bad because the unbalanced load on your branch circuits between phase A and B gets brought back to the main via the neutral, in this case your don't have a correct path to to the main panel board causing a different in potential to ground which WILL cause a serious safety risk
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:23 PM   #25
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Subpanel conductors


If that wire is indeed in conduit end to end, just pull it out and pull the proper 4 wires for the 240v circuit. Of course you have to add a grounding buss and un-bond the neutral in that sub, then install a grounding rod.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #26
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you don't put a ground rod here, it's a MLO panel and that also causes a difference in potential to the main service.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:54 PM   #27
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Deez,
You are saying do not use a ground rod at the shop (sub panel)?
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:25 PM   #28
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you don't put a ground rod here, it's a MLO panel and that also causes a difference in potential to the main service.
Not true.
you may need 2 rods with todays code.

that also causes a difference in potential

Where do you come up with this statement?
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #29
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Subpanel conductors


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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Deez,
You are saying do not use a ground rod at the shop (sub panel)?
If you are going to fix this panel, then you need a rod at the shop.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:32 PM   #30
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right it's a main lug panel( a panel with no main breaker) so all grounding needs to go back to the main panel. It's hard to explain, but basically you can't have 2 sources to ground because it causes a difference in potential between the two, which can and will cause safety risks. it's right in article 250 you typically pound two rods at the MAIN service as a supplemental grounding electrode, or the primary if no cold water pipe is present. sitting through countless hours of boring grounding classes has done me good.



just to add, this is straight from 2011 NEC 250.2

Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. An intentionally
constructed, low-impedance electrically conductive path designed
and intended to carry current under ground-fault conditions
from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system to
the electrical supply source and that facilitates the operation of
the overcurrent protective device or ground-fault detectors on
high-impedance grounded systems.


Last edited by The Deez; 05-04-2011 at 04:58 PM.
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